Granite tile tops Ques Edges & 45 Degree angles [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

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goosegunner
03-04-2006, 11:10 PM
New to the forum and have a few Questions.

Probably going with New Venitian Gold 12"X12". Not sure about edging Yet. Has anyone used the cork miter? I was thinking of doing that edge. But I need to look into the Schlüter edges that people are talking about on this site.

The big question I have is,

Our peninsula is 36" wide with 12" over hang for stools, Is it ok to have unsupported overhang for tile?

It also has 2 45 degree turns in it, I will need to cut the tiles on 45 degree angles. That will remove the micro bevel. Will that be noticeable when butted together?

Is there a way to put the small polished micro bevel back on the tile yourself after making those cuts?

Also has anyone bought the tile online? Seems to be cheaper than local.

Thanks

gg

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Mike2
03-04-2006, 11:26 PM
Hi Goose. Gunnin should be all wrapped up for this season. That why your doing the kitchen now? :D

I have NVG on my own countertops and peninsula. With all the garnet that's in it along with the gold hues, it looks real good with stained wood molding as an edge.

Shop it around some. In my area I've seen it run anywhere from $8.95 SF all the way up to $13.95. Don't know about Internet purchases of granite tile.

The micro bevel you can recreate by hand using a grinder. Preferably a variable speed one, low RPM (e.g. 2000) and some 120-grit aluminum oxide paper. Don't have to polish them if you grout flush with the tile surface. But if you don't recreate them, those cut edges will show up and if grouting flush, the space will appear much smaller compared to the beveled edges.

goosegunner
03-05-2006, 04:54 PM
Yeah Hunting is all done here except Yotes.

Not sure what tile we want yet. My buddy is a tile setter so I can get a discount. looks like it will be in the $8 to $10 range.

Our cabinets are Red Oak with a Light stain by Western, giving a reddish hue. Not sure about the Yellow in the NVG granite wish I could see some completed projects in person.

Mike2 you have any pictures?

Might be going back to look at some more samples.

Read somewhere about polishing tools for shaping edges and polishing cut pieces, Anyone have the source?

gg

John Bridge
03-05-2006, 05:45 PM
Hi Goose,

You gotta part with a name. Don't like Goose as a name. :)

Can't comment on color. I'm an awful decorator. I can mention that a 12 in. overhang with stone tiles has to be completely supported, or you'll have a crack you can never cure about 12 inches back from the edge. Legs, brackets, wing walls, whatever. You've got to be able to lean or sit on it without it's moving. :)

goosegunner
03-05-2006, 06:30 PM
Can always call me Mike, if you don't like the name.

That's a bummer about the support, We use the Area as our eating area. We have 4 stools at the counter. Sounds like it could be a Knee knocker problem.

What are Wing walls?

Would that be wood blocking?


Looks like the Granite may be out for me. I was hoping to get away from Laminate

Would granite slab need the same support?

gg

Mike

Mike2
03-05-2006, 09:16 PM
John can call you Mike but I'm stickin with Goose, Gunner. :)

Don't give up on that tile idea just yet. Here's a 7' long peninsula with a 16" overhang. Double 3/4" AC ply top, Ditra, New Venetian Gold tile with oak trim. Even has the two 45's like yours. There are three corbels tucked away underneath providing necessary support. You can see one on the right. They are very unobtrusive and don't get in the way.

goosegunner
03-05-2006, 09:37 PM
Hey that looks nice! Thats what I was wondering about, corbels are what they are called.


Supporting a 12" over hang, how many would you need?

It has double 45?'s to make it 90? off our south wall.

29" run, 45? /46.5" run, 45?/ 36.5" run

How far apart would you put the braces?

How close to the edge of the overhang should they come?

gg

Mike2
03-05-2006, 10:10 PM
Would need to know how the countertop is built Gunner to get real specific.

In my case have 2 layers of 3/4" AC ply laminated together with full spread Tite Bond glue. Each layer is a single panel 42" wide, 7' long. The ply in turn is fastened to cleats inside and around the face frame cabinet front and back. The 16" overhang is supported by 10" X 10" corbels spaced 36" apart.

I do get a lot of overhang support help from the fact that the top is 42" wide not to mention the double layers well secured to the cabinet base.

goosegunner
03-05-2006, 10:23 PM
Ok Just to make this a little more clear I attached a few pics

So what do yo think about support?

I can build the tile base from what ever I need.

The more I think about the 45˚ lines the less sure I am about how this is going to look. I know it will have to have lines right where the joints are in the laminate. Wondering how the 45˚ pieces are going to look.

gg

Mike2
03-05-2006, 10:42 PM
I need to draw that top out to scale. Understand the 12" overhang part.


How wide is each section?

Re. the 29", 46.5", and 36.5" dimensions; those are outside right, not inside?

Mike2
03-05-2006, 11:01 PM
Time for me to log off and hit the rack Gunner. Can maybe pick up on this tomorrow. Or maybe someone else can pick up the load.

Mañana

goosegunner
03-05-2006, 11:02 PM
I will try to get a drawing scanned but,

Those lengths are the outside lengths for corner to next corner along the stool side.

If you look at my pictures the 29" is the area from the left to the first corner.

The 46.5" is from corner to corner where the middle 2 stools sit.

the 36.5" is from the corner to the end, space where the right stool is sitting

The base cabinet is 24" deep and has 12" of counter overhanging for leg room for the stools.

Another issue is the raised panel back to the cabinet, makes corbel placement a little tricky.


gg

goosegunner
03-05-2006, 11:09 PM
Mike2,

Thanks for all your time so far!

gg

Mike2
03-06-2006, 10:08 AM
I don't see why something like this wouldn't work:

"8 X 8" corbel in your case, then using a vertical backing plate (1" X 4" or whatever) as in this pic. to bridge the gap created by your raised panels. http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Jeep03/Corbel.jpg

For a must-have double layer top, here's an example of a plywood cut schedule:

Layer 1:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Jeep03/ply1.jpg

Layer 2:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Jeep03/Ply2.jpg

This is a basic 5 minute design concept I would start out with. Could prolly make it better.

:)

goosegunner
03-06-2006, 03:40 PM
Thanks for the help Mike2!

I do have styles between the raised panels where I could place the Corbels.

The other idea I had was to weld some L brackets out of 3/8 plate steel, maybe 2" wide and fasten to the cabinets and underside of counter overhang.

Then I could cut a piece of oak and router out the backside to cover the plate. Could dress up the side showing with the router also.

That would really cut down on the obstructions in the knee space.

gg

goosegunner
03-06-2006, 04:08 PM
Today I found some Kashmir Gold tile that looks nice. It also has slab thickness Bullnose pieces that come 27" long, 2-1/4" wide, .

The tile portion is 3/8" thick

But the Bullnose overhang is 1-1/8".

That doesn't leave much for the base.

They suggest;

1/2" or 5/8" plywood
1/4" backer board
Thinset
Tile

or

3/4" Plywood
thinset
Tile

I sure like the look but from everything I have read here it seems thin?

gg

Mike2
03-06-2006, 04:11 PM
Draw it out and throw it up here.

With only 12" over overhang and a 1 1/2" double glued up layer of ply I personally think the primary force to recon with is uplift on the inward side of the cabinet. The ply itself will not deflect much with any reasonable load I can think of in a kitchen providing someone doesn't sit or stand on the overhang.

goosegunner
03-06-2006, 04:51 PM
Draw the Brackets or the Bull nose?

The problem with the Bullnose is the thickest I can go with substrate is 1-1/8",

Too thin?

This is what the tile company that sells recommends. Lexco tile.

gg

Mike2
03-06-2006, 05:48 PM
There is another easy way to deal with that bullnose problem Goose. I can post up a drawing and picture tonight. Don't have the time now.

What I was referring to in the way of a drawing above was the welded bracket.

In the end of course you may decide to go with slab instead of tile and that's certainly OK. All I'm trying to do is show ways of getting around the problems you currently perceive building and tiling your own. :)

goosegunner
03-06-2006, 06:20 PM
After looking at the width of my styles between raised panels I think the oak corbels might be best.

I can say almost positively we won't go slab. Too Much money with Kids approaching college.

Its either Granite tile or laminate for us.

gg

Mike2
03-06-2006, 10:26 PM
:x: Oh oh Gunner, you done it now. In keeping with the decorum of this forum I must advise you that use of the "L" word is big time infraction. :D

Now back on track to Granite Tile:

First of all, the counter top in that picher I posted above is a full 2 1/4" thick. Really doesn't look like it though.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Jeep03/ct1.jpg

Here's the deal, one way to cope with a CT base that is thicker than the edge treatment be it bullnose, wood, whatever.

In this drawing you can see how the first layer of ply is cut back flush with the face frame and a thin piece of molding stained to match the cabinets covers it up.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Jeep03/ct2.jpg
The second plywood layer extends out over this trim piece to which the bullnose/trim is secured.

The same treatment is applied to the overhang.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Jeep03/ct3.jpg

This simple little piece of matching wood trim creates the illusion that the CT is much thinner and allows for smaller bullnose or edge treatment.

Think something like that would work for you?

goosegunner
03-06-2006, 10:57 PM
Mike2,

That is a Great idea! Never thought of that.

I really appreciate all the time you have spent giving advice on my questions. I now have a solution if I want to go with the Kashmir gold.

We are trying to make a decision on the color but are having a hard time.

As you can see from my pictures our L tops are a bad color, Hated them since the day we put them in. I think thats why we are having a hard time deciding, don't want to make that mistake again.

Wife is a afraid the NVG might be too wild, but is also afraid the Kasmir gold is too plain.

Thanks again for the help, probably won't be back til Weds.

gg

Mike2
03-06-2006, 11:12 PM
Glad to be of some assistance GG. Come back soon you hear.

:)

TJoeC
03-06-2006, 11:37 PM
Mike: what a great trick... very nice treatment ... along with all the other help...Goose owes you a beer fer sure.

Goose: I dunno what's wrong with that color... I'm sure it went with something sometime... maybe a 1966 Star Trek episode I dreamed once! Say, I just noticed it matched the main color scheme on the forum perfectly. And it's still ugly.

Seriously, go get 10 tiles of each stone you're considering (making sure you know the return policy is good.) Dry lay a couple courses and just look at it from all angles. Spend a day or two with each color laid out. Move it to another corner.

Better safe than sorry. Or you could just go crazy with your 'puter:

goosegunner
03-12-2006, 09:23 PM
Moving along on our tile tops,

Found a guy that would do slab for us in santa cecilia light for $3051 installed. Just under 60 sq ft. Seems like a good price but not to keen on the color.

Said he would do Veneitian Gold or Cambrian Black for $3951. Little more than I want to spend.

Anyway, I have been searching the forum and have a few more questions.

I see some mention of going over formica. Could I cut the overhangs and back splash off my tops and use that for one of the layers?

Would make a nice template and the seams are securely glued and bolted together.

Grout For Venetian Gold, Is the epoxy stuff (spectralok pro) ok or is the stone too porous making it too difficult to clean off?

Also wondering about screwing down the plywood to the cabinets, could I use angle iron and fasten from underneath so if I ever want to remove I can do so without destroying cabinets?

gg

Mike2
03-13-2006, 12:42 AM
There is likely to be particle board under the existing laminate top and you don't want that anywhere near tile GG. Furthermore, a single layer ply overhang is going to be on the flimsy side, my opinion.

Fastening whatever onto the cabinet frames and screwing down the ply coming up from below is a very good idea. Angle iron would be one way of doing that.

:)

goosegunner
03-13-2006, 03:54 PM
Mike2,

Just to be clear The formica wouldn't be the only layer. I thought I would go over with 3/4 plywood, then tile.

What do you use other than angle iron?

Wood blocking?

gg

Mike2
03-13-2006, 04:30 PM
If possible I like to put 1X3's or 1X4's laid flat lengthwise inside the cabinet keeping them flush with the top, screwed into cleats placed on the sides. Have to watch for breadboards and drawer interference. Lay the ply down and screw up into it through the 1-by's. Usually have to get a little creative around the sink. Sometimes it even works to lay these 1-by strips on top of the cabinet frame. A lot easier and quicker that way.