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DonB
11-05-2005, 09:40 AM
I have a bit of a visualization problem and a weird kitchen. Can I take please advantage of the experienced eyes here?

I'm using 12x12 Daltile Cobblestone and find the best layout will require me to run a 4" border next to everything, including a large T island in the middle. Do y'all think it may look better to use 6x6 tiles ripped down to 4x6 to border all the field tiles rather than 12 inchers cut down to 4x12?

Thanks,
Don

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Shaughnn
11-05-2005, 09:49 AM
Don,
It's generally a matter of personal tastes. Will the border be done in a contrasting color or the same tile as the field? Have you looked at your island to see which dimension allows for the most attractive cuts around it?
Shaughnn

Mike2
11-05-2005, 09:49 AM
Hi Don. It would sure help everyone here to at least have a layout of this kitchen, with dimensions. Without that there isn't much for experienced eyes to look at. ;)

DonB
11-05-2005, 10:13 AM
Shaughnn, all tile will be the same Cobblestone. They make a 4x4 and 6x6 variety identical in appearance to the 12x12. It all lays out perfectly to border all vertical surfaces on the longitudinal axis with 4" cuts. It seems like there's an unwritten rule to never use less than a half-tile cut but I don't see any way around it.

Mike, by experienced eyes I mean have you guys ever done something like this and did it look good?

I'm going to bite the bullet and draw this turkey up in CAD so I can (hopefully) post it as a jpeg for you to look at. Be back later with this.

Don

DonB
11-05-2005, 02:26 PM
Here's the drawing.

Davy
11-05-2005, 02:40 PM
There are so many ways to do it. I would pop a line centering up the room within the 13'7" walls and start with full tiles at the doorway at the top and see what size cuts I would have everywhere. You are bound to have half tiles or less somewhere, hard to avoid. :)

Shaughnn
11-05-2005, 03:12 PM
From this drawing, I'd say start with a full tile at the long wall. This will give you a cut which is slightly larger than a half at the cabinet toe-kick and set yourself up with a good sized cut at the angled entry. I'd also start with a full tile at the top-most door, leading into the kitchen. This will give you nearly a full tile at the door into the laundry room and again set you up for good cuts at the angled entry.
Best of luck,
Shaughnn

DonB
11-05-2005, 06:35 PM
Thanks guys. I appreciate the help.

Definitely, working from the center line of the 13' 7" area is the way to go. This way I'll have no awkward looking small pieces at any longitudinal junction. The smallest cut I need is 9" and they'll match at both sides of the room in the important focal areas. The cuts along the T island will both be over 10 so that will also be great.

Putting full tiles in the main entry door at the top of the room works well, too but it leaves me with a 2" slice across the bottom of the "T". I just have to decide if I want to have that tiny slice right in the doorway (where I could probably hide it with a custom threshold) or the other place where it will stick out like a sore thumb. In fact, to solve that problem I have some very nice Brazillian cherry that I can fit right in there without too much fabrication and tile right up to it. This will allow me to use full tiles along that north wall where the the door is. I'll have some small cuts on the lateral axis of the layout but now they'll fall in relatively unimportant areas.

Shaughnn, none ot these cabinets have a toe kick until you get in next to the refrigerator and into the actual kitchen work area. The pantry cabinet, all the cabinets beside the entry door and all visible portions of the T island are straight sides with only oak trim around the bottoms. It's all custom stuff

Hey Mike! Thanks for providing the incentive to go ahead and do the drawing. It really does make plannng a lot easier and more precise.

Don

Davy
11-05-2005, 06:55 PM
I'd rather have a 2 1/2 inch cut along a cabinet than in a doorway. It will be noticeable even with wood against it. Maybe you are wanting to replace the 2 1/2 cut in the doorway with wood, that would work.

Mike2
11-05-2005, 07:10 PM
I'd be very tempted to use the Hopscotch pattern mixing 6's and 12's with all you have going on in there. Visually that pattern tends to "downplay" the difference in cut's that you undoubetdly will have. Would work nicely I think, with and without a border. ;)

French Quarter Cobblestone comes in 6's that you could add to what you already have purchased, if that's the case.

DonB
11-06-2005, 09:02 AM
Davy,

I find there's no point substituting wood for full tiles in the doorway because, although this picture doesn't accurately represent point A, there's no way I can avoid adding a cut in front of there, even with an obscenely large grout joint. Points A, B, C and D will all require a cut no matter how I lay it out. The only way to avoid it is to put the cut at the door. The good news is, even though there's no toe kick to camoflage these cuts, they won't look too bad. Bottom line is I'm back to the point of deciding which is the lesser of the evils.

Mike,

The place I get the 12's from also carries the 6x6 and 6x12 Cobblestone but the price is much higher. $2.70/ft. vs. $1.95 for the 12x12. I can see how an irregular pattern will distract the eye from layout oddities but I'm not sure I like the mix. The store has a sample laid down that consists of a random pattern of all three tiles. It looks very "busy" with a variety of grout line widths.

To all of y'all,

I have to say, this is a rather unique forum. There are very few that I know of with such a wide variety of expertise and willingness of participants to jump all over stuff. You guys really gang up on issues. This is a great place and an asset not only to people doing tile work but to the internet in general.

Don

Davy
11-06-2005, 09:14 AM
Don, I thought maybe using wood in the doorway would eliminate the small cuts there leaving full tiles against the wood. Many times I shoot for full tiles in the main doorways. Even if the layout is on a 45, I try to have half tiles there. My eye sees that before the cuts against a cabinet. :)

DonB
11-06-2005, 10:16 AM
Davy,

I was hoping I could make it up with wood but it's too much. The absolute most I can get away with is the 2", as mentioned earlier. This would leave me with tiny cuts at all points. Using full tiles at the door and no wood will require 3 5/8" cuts at A, B, D and a 3 1/4" cut at C. I don't think that will look too bad.

I'll try shifting the entire field down quite a ways, using a bit less than a full cut against wood at the doorway. Maybe that would work out and eliminate the small cuts downfield. Life is hell for a perfectionist.

Thanks for the pic. Looks good. What secures the carpet at that transition? Tack strip?

Don

Davy
11-06-2005, 07:32 PM
Those cuts won't be bad, can't have it perfect everywhere, it just doesn't happen.

The carpet man used a Z-bar against the tile. It has a tack strip with it but it lets the carpet fold under right against the tile. Makes a nice clean look. ;)

DonB
11-06-2005, 10:55 PM
Davy,

Please let me to bother you for one more bit of advice on this thing.

I shifted the field toward the bottom by putting a 9" cuts in the doorway. Do you think the trade-off at the door is worth the improved symmetry?

All my problem field cuts will increase by 3" or better and meet the "greater than tile" criteria if I do this. BTW, this drawing is dead accurate and based on the average spaced single tile size in a 10 tile span.

Don

bbcamp
11-07-2005, 07:03 AM
That layout looks good to me. You have only one short wall with some skinnies, but otherwise a good compromise.

Shaughnn
11-07-2005, 07:20 AM
Don,
You may even avoid those "skinnies" if your tile-plus-joint dimension is even just a little larger than the 12" that you've mapped out. Some Dal 12" actually works out to 12 1/8", with a joint. Over your 17' span, that sliver at the laundry door would disappear if this is the case. So too would the sliver near the refridgerator. Also, is your front door threashhold flush with the wall or does it "bump in" an inch? This might become an issue in the laundry room but a slightly larger tile-joint dimension, as described above, should give you enough streatch to reach that door also.
Best of luck,
Shaughnn

DonB
11-07-2005, 11:01 AM
That row of skinnies is a serious compromise but since the large corner tile trims around the corner, I'm thinking it won't be that bad. That area, however, is clearly visible through the back door window before ever entering the house. The cuts are 1 7/8" and will be covered by " of trim. I can't fix it by shifting the field to the right because that would create an impossible situation in the angled area.

This particular Daltile is well under 12" and there's a 1/8" variation in size in the 15 tile lot I have for a sample. My drawing grid is based on a 10 tile average with a 3/16" spacing. This works out to be 11 15/16" so I'll get no help there.

Another solution to a bunch of my layout problems is going to our 2nd choice tile which is a Spanish tile called Alcorense "Cordillera". This tile is supposedly a consistent 11 15/16" but my wife likes the Cobblestone so much better. The sample tile I have of Cordillera is a little too dark. If I found that it was also a random color, with the single example I have being in the darker range, I would switch immediately especially considering my net cost would be at least 25% cheaper. Fact is, nobody seems to know about color range in this tile and it appears as though the only way I can find out for sure is order in a large quantity (and pay the freight). Anybody familiar with it?

Don

John Bridge
11-07-2005, 06:42 PM
Hi Don, :)

Most tile setters are top notch decorators, and that includes me. :)