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Old 02-18-2011, 10:17 AM   #1
r1dannyzx
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Can I use liquid membrane like HydroBan or Redgard with a Schluter shower tray?

Hi guys...I've been reading this forum for a few months and have had enough of the controversy over the use of Kerdi and how to install it.

So, I'm not going to use it.

I want to use HydroBan for the membrane but was wondering if there would be any issues with the Hydrobans ablity to adhere well to the styrofoam pan from Schluter..or ProVAs (also Styrofoam)

I desperately want to avoid two things...the Kerdi due to the challenge of installing and a mud shower base due to the cost (won't try that myself)


This bathroom been out of commision since last 4th of July and if I don't get it going (been stuck on this issue for months) soon I'm gonna be dealing a really unhappy boss (wife)

Thanks in advance for all the help you guys !!

Also, any advice on niches that have to go inline with the shower valve/head but are shallow enough to allow for the 1/2 copper pipe running up to the shower head...I want to avoid having to reroute that pipe around the niche cavity but thats the only solution that won't leave me with custom niches that are too shallow to hold the larger shampoo bottles isn't it guys??

I hate sweating pipes that rest against drywall...even with the flameguard...I just suck at it.

Thanks again!

Danny
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:22 AM   #2
jgleason
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Hi Danny,

Not sure what controversy there is to installing Kerdi. It really is pretty easy.

Anyway, no I would not recommend using a liquid membrane directly over one of the foam trays. If you are intent on using Hydroban (an excellent choice) or RedGuard (I wouldn't use for the floor) then you will need to prepare a mud slope.

Cost for a foam tray will be multiple times more than the cost to put in a mud bed.
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:40 AM   #3
r1dannyzx
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Question A mud bed installed cheaper than a foam tray?

I was quoted $500 to do a 64"x 40" mudbed with a curb...yet the the shluter 72"x72" shluter tray and curb can be had for less than $300.

Please clarify if yopu would...

Also, a guy in tech services with Laticrete (HydroBan) suggest putting a skim coat of thinset to the foam tray...then HydroBan it. Make good sense?

Thanks again, this forum may well save my marriage
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:42 AM   #4
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Wellcome, Danny.

What Joe said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
I desperately want to avoid two things...the Kerdi due to the challenge of installing and a mud shower base due to the cost (won't try that myself)
You can build a lot of mud shower floors for the cost of one foam tray. Anybody's foam tray.

If you lack confidence, for a few dollars you can make you a couple practice floors with mud and toss out the remains if you want.

And with a mud floor, you don't need to worry about first making a perfectly level and flat subfloor upon which to install your foam tray. And you don't hafta worry about your foam tray being the correct size and shape. And you don't haft worry about the drain location in your foam tray being in exactly the same spot as the drain in your floor. Etc.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:50 AM   #5
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I think cx is right. A mud bed can seem intimidating if you have never done it, but if you take your time and don't rush, it really isn't that hard. If you can tile a shower you can do a mud bed. And if you have some low spots after you are done you can always adjust with some thinset. Likewise take a grinder to any high spots.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:06 AM   #6
Jim wood
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I would not use a liquid membrane over a Kerdi tray. They can dimple if you put point pressure on it.
I would either Kerdi it which is not to complicated, just follow instructions
or
I would buy Probase from Noble company which is designed not to use a sheet membrane.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:28 PM   #7
WendyHMN
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Hi Danny. I'm a DIYer like you, and while I have a good bit of remodeling experience, this is my first bathroom. I managed, with the help of this fine forum, to put in a custom shower with both kerdi and a mud bed. Don't fear the mud.

Before things get too detailed, tell us about your project. I'm curious that you ripped out your bath a few months back without having a plan for the new one. Are you super spontaneous or was there a leak or something? Do you have any pictures of the current space with the plumbing exposed? I deliberately avoided doing niches but I'm sure the pros will be happy to help with your placement. What kind of tile are you putting in? Any info helps.
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:19 PM   #8
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Thumbs up Awesome pointers guys...and gals...

I'll get some pics up over the weekend (batterys dead in camera).....

A few points to help you guys understand where I'm at...

*The shower was relocated (garden tub removed) so the drain hole isnt cut yet...which makes a schluter tray easier...right? But a floor joist is running longways right thru the middle of the where the prefab foam trays want the drain to go!..pushing me towards a mudbed right?

**The floor is all brand new 3/4 OSB (waterleak got to over half the room) and I layed 1/4 hardi on top of that set in a 1/4 x 1/4 trowled bed of Laticrete Multipurpose (unmod)....I did however forget to wet the Hardi before laying it in the mud...mud was loose enough though that it squised out of the seams a little and will have to be sanded down before taping...or should I grind the excess out of those seams for the tape and mud to go in???...asnyway the mud was loose enough I'm not too worried about the Hardi sucking it too dry to cure properly..."fingers are still crossed though"

***I talked to Schluter since my first post and they reinvigorated me towards the Kerdi...so whats would you guys say the best plan for a first timer would be....the kerdi with the foam tray?...or the Hydroban with a mudbed?...also, Do you put the CBU directly down on the cured mudbed?? ...and then what?...tape and mortar them together and then Hydroban them together?


****Wendy...It was kinda spontaneous but a leak had been ignored for far too long...I got into picking at some moldy loose tile in the builder grade closet shower we had and tile after tile started falling off the wall....5 hours later the room was an 8x8 hole ...and the entire bathroom was in the back of my truck. That was July 4th weekend.....but hey!...It got me started!

I'll get those pics up ASAP...any advice on taking small enough pics that they will fit on here?? the ones I have are way too big...like 2mb each!
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:37 PM   #9
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You've got 1/4" Hardi down, but no tile yet, correct? If so, you haven't done anything wrong. The time to dampen the Hardi is before you put thinset and tile on top.

As for the mudbed, there's a lot we could explain, but it might be best if you look over the shower construction thread in the Liberry and familiarize yourself with construction methods.

I would go with the mudbed no matter what, but the choice of waterproofing is up to you. Liquid is pretty easy and foolproof, but for me it's a little messier and takes extra time. If you've got plenty of time, Hydroban is a good product for your project. If you decide to tackle the Kerdi method, you'll have plenty of help here.
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:25 PM   #10
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Thats right Kevin...

Hardi is down on mud on OSB.....

I was pretty sdure it weould be ok...thanks for the reassurance....

Hey all...anyone have a suggestion on floor heat system for a first time and if I go with floor heat, I will only want to do a 3ft wide strip thru the middle of the room...not the whole floor...just mainly where we walk....
will these "uneven" cause me problems?...also, how to attach the heat mat to Hardie?

Thanks!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:25 PM   #11
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Danny, download Irfanview, a free image viewer/editor. It's pretty easy to resize pics with this utility. Once you get your pics to about 600 pixels high by 400 wide, they'll upload in a snap.
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
***I talked to Schluter since my first post and they reinvigorated me towards the Kerdi...so whats would you guys say the best plan for a first timer would be....the kerdi with the foam tray?...or the Hydroban with a mudbed?...
How about a mud bed with Kerdi on the mud bed. Kerdi on the walls. Kerdi corners at the inside and outside corners. Kerdi band at all plane transitions. Make sure you have a 2" overlap everywhere, and you are good to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
I hate sweating pipes that rest against drywall...even with the flameguard...I just suck at it.
How about use a sharkbite fitting to PEX. Then, no sweating necessary. Or, use all sharkbites with copper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
But a floor joist is running longways right thru the middle of the where the prefab foam trays want the drain to go!..pushing me towards a mudbed right?
How about heading out the joist? A little framing involved. Then, you could center the drain.
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Last edited by ScottIdaho; 02-18-2011 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:54 PM   #13
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about niches

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=91369

is a thread from the last couple of days where I posted pics of some of my niches.

I use stone which extends up to 1.25" out from the wall for that extra depth for the bottles. The Tile Shop here in St. Louis has 24"x24" granite that is either 7/16 or 9/16" thick for stability. I polish the edges with polishing pads. That should give you some depth you lose from the copper.
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:56 AM   #14
r1dannyzx
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Talking reply to ScottIdaho and kevin n.

Scott...I do love that sharkbite stuff...used some for the 3/4 to 1/2 reduction ball valves leading to this bathroom..its hard to trust but it aint leaked a drop...a little too expensive though....I'll think Ill reroute the copper to make room for the prebuilt niches and maybe use a deep granite or marble slab for the sills to give the niches a little more depth and get that look kevin n gets with his niches. Since my walls are still open the sweating should be tolerable....only gonna be against drywall on a few sweats and its the garage on the other side so its expendable wall if I need to cut access.

Also ScottIdaho...can you clarify a little on the idea of "heading out" that floor joist giving me drain location issues...I would love to be able to center that drain..it would make the schluter tray/kerdi the easy drop in option its intended to be.


THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE READING AND REPLYING...THE HELP AND ADVICE IS VERY VERY APPRECIATED!!
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:05 PM   #15
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Danny if youre worried about sweating the fittings............. look into pex and compression rings if codes permit in your local. Makes it real simple to install and when done right good for 50 years.

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