Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-21-2010, 02:57 PM   #1
eyeglass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 37
correct method for shower wall ASAP.

My tile guy gave me 2 methods of installing ceramic tile shower wall. (Shower pan will be hot mop). Will either one of these methods cause problems. My concerns are mole development etc from condensation. ]

[b]Please advice accordingly asap as job is awaiting.
I am in Sacramento, California. Would this comply with CBC code (not a code violation)?


My tile guy, Ed, says this:
A. 6 mil poly
B. green board aka moisture resistant wall board. (I do not have the manufacturer name) with the seams covered with mesh tape.
C. wire stapled to the wallboard
D. mortar applied over the wire to create a plumb surface for the 4" tile to be applied over.
This would be done in one day.
Red Guard could be purchased and installed in between step B & C if you specified that. It would need to set/dry overnight.

OR ...

AA. 6 mil poly
BB. cement board
CC. a bonderizer primer applied over the cement board. This would have to set/dry overnight.
DD. wire nailed onto board with roofing nails
EE. mortar applied over the wire to create a plumb surface for the 4" tile to be applied over.
Georgesunray

Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:51 am
Private message
__________________
Bill
eyeglass is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 09-21-2010, 03:46 PM   #2
Lazarus
Texas Tile Contractor
 
Lazarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Beaumont, Texas
Posts: 7,280
Personally, I'd Kerdi it and be done with it....however, option #1 would be NOT to add redguard if there is a poly backing. Only ONE barrier. With two, you get a mold sandwich.

Of the two options...I'd have to go with the second.
__________________
Laz...

“Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks.”
Lazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 03:56 PM   #3
ceramictec
Tampa Florida Tile Contractor
 
ceramictec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 26,339
without the RedGard i would worry about the staples and wired rusting out over time.
__________________
Brian
........
..........Tampa Florida Tile Installation
..............^^--Check out our Blog--^^
Tampa Installer of Laticrete HydroBan/HydroBan Board
......Tampa Installer of Schluter Kerdi/Kerdi-Board
..................."Tampa Waterproofed Tile Showers"
..............Porcelain - Travertine - Ceramic - Glass Tile
ceramictec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 05:51 PM   #4
Houston Remodeler
Pondering retirement daily

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Houston Remodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 27,451
Bill,

Your man Ed has me confused.

In plan A he mentions greenboard, which, should never be used in a shower and isn't listed by the TCNA as suitable for showers. "A" also has the dreaded moisture sandwich.

Plan B is fine, but why hang cement board then put a layer of cement over that? Seems to me you already have what you are looking for in the first layer of CBU.

A is out, B is acceptable. Odd to me, but acceptable.

Is this a stand alone shower or a tub shower combo?
__________________
Paul1

For when DIY isn't such a good idea...
Houston TX area Kitchen & Bath Remodeling


http://CabotAndRowe.com
Houston Remodeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 06:05 PM   #5
Lazarus
Texas Tile Contractor
 
Lazarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Beaumont, Texas
Posts: 7,280
Damn, Paul.....it's only Tuesday and I'm confused allready!
__________________
Laz...

“Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks.”
Lazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 07:04 PM   #6
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 11,729
Not a fan of hot mop, but on the west coast, it's fairly common. Doesn't last as long as a good traditional mudbed or a Kerdi shower, but okay.

The bottom edge of greenboard would be sitting in the pan, and getting wet, regardless of what you do with the surface, so it's a no-go.

If the studs are in-plane, then you can just put up a vapor barrier, the cbu, and tile directly to it. The mudded wall is a good way to fix out of plumb or square walls, but if not done well, much worse than just cbu, which is already flat. It will bend if the wall studs aren't in line, since it is screwed to it.
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 08:20 PM   #7
Jaz
Michigan Tile Pro
 
Jaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 1,719
Hi George,

As you can see we don't like either method 100% but the 2nd is best. I also answered this question at the other place you posted last night.

Not sure if you have another choice on membranes. We just don't think that much of tar, well most of us don't.

As I said before, I'd go with the Kerdi method. Sounds like you allready signed on the dotted line and the project will start soon. Do you have time to re-think this?

Jaz
__________________
Troy, Michigan

Custom TileSetter (retired) - Method & Product suitability consulting

DIRECT Containers MARBLE from ITALY - GREECE; PERLATO di SICILIA - PERLATINO - BOTTICINO - THASSOS - SIVEC - VOLAKAS - ARETI WHITE - CALACATTA - others - Slabs - Tiles - Custom marmo.sicilia@yahoo.com
Jaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 08:44 PM   #8
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 28,667
He can do either one but if he does the first one, just put the greenboard up first, then the poly, lath, mud and tile. Leave the Redgard off. I would cut the greenboard at the top of the pan and over lap the hot mop with the poly.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com
Davy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 09:00 PM   #9
Deckert
Remodeling and Tile Contractor
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 2,113
Probably lots of ways folks do this, but you can stop the greenboard up high (like a foot off the floor), run your poly and lathe down into the pan, and you still have the blocking of the hot mop to hold your mud out. Then the mud floor locks the bottom of the wall into place.

Not sure if thats exactly what you are sayin Davy, but thats how I've done it.
__________________
Brannigan
Facilities Manager, TPC Snoqualmie Ridge
Reformed Remodeler and C54 Tile Contractor
HeenanGC.com
Deckert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 09:11 PM   #10
Jaz
Michigan Tile Pro
 
Jaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 1,719
I doubt the wall board people would approve of poly over their board. Moisture sandwich.

That is (vapor barriers) a very confusing and misunderstood subject. (Not that I'm any more knowledgable that anyone else here). It's requirements are vague and differ depending on location. Seems to make a big diff whether it's in cold weather or hot and humid climes.

Of course I think a surface membrane is the way to go.

Jaz
__________________
Troy, Michigan

Custom TileSetter (retired) - Method & Product suitability consulting

DIRECT Containers MARBLE from ITALY - GREECE; PERLATO di SICILIA - PERLATINO - BOTTICINO - THASSOS - SIVEC - VOLAKAS - ARETI WHITE - CALACATTA - others - Slabs - Tiles - Custom marmo.sicilia@yahoo.com
Jaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 09:24 PM   #11
Deckert
Remodeling and Tile Contractor
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 2,113
Yeah, I hear ya Jaz on the surface membranes.

I build Kerdi showers almost exclusively, but here in California mud (1 or 2 coat) over a hot mop pan is just the way it normally is. Its what most tile guys are used to. Its what most inspectors want to see unless you convince em otherwise. Its what builders call for 99% of the time.
__________________
Brannigan
Facilities Manager, TPC Snoqualmie Ridge
Reformed Remodeler and C54 Tile Contractor
HeenanGC.com
Deckert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 10:57 AM   #12
eyeglass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 37
a bonderizer primer applied over the cement board. This would have to set/dry overni

Thxs for all the replies:
One big question: Cement board they planning to use is a Hardieback 1/2". with
"a bonderizer primer applied over the cement board. This would have to set/dry overnight"

Would this set up a vapor barrier with the 6mi poly on the stud?

What other cement bd can they use that will not have the fast absoption rate of a Hardie back?

I was thinking of the same to go with second method(double letter or method B) without the bonerizer.("Bondrizer primer" can you define it)
__________________
Bill
eyeglass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 11:08 AM   #13
Edthedawg
Wannabe Engineer Old-house-nik DIY'er :)
 
Edthedawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NE CT
Posts: 2,062
Bill,

You got two really odd build options there, and a lot of really sound advice to go with neither of them. The 2nd one if you have no other options.

But you DO have other options.

Whyn't just put up the 1/2" CBU (Durock, Wonderboard) or Hardie, screwed to the studs w/ no poly sheeting, tape/mud the seams, and then apply a liquid waterproofing membrane (like RedGard or HydroBan) over that? Then thinset / tile / grout.

Seems you're going WAY out of your way to complicate something that's, well, fairly simple if done right.
__________________
Ed

GO SOX!

Pleased to have helped design and build many of the residential projects featured here: http://www.tandtdev.com/portfolio.html
Edthedawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 11:48 AM   #14
eyeglass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 37
correct method for shower wall ASAP

Ed, Jax, Davy: (Shower) If I use method A in the order you described(Davy):
greenboard, the Poly, lath mud.
Would this set up a vapor trap between the greenboard and vapor 6ml?

If I ask them to use method B without the bonderizer over cement board, would that work better, assumpting the mud will set dry with the Hardie back absorption rate? or should I subtitute with Wonderbord?
I like to get back with the Contractor by today?
Thx: George/Bill
__________________
Bill
eyeglass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 12:22 PM   #15
Shaughnn
Trowel Monkey
 
Shaughnn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kent, Washin'ton
Posts: 11,467
Bill,
You installer is confused about why he's doing things which suggests to me that he's either inexperienced or he's just not curious enough to teach himself. I suspect that this is not a licensed contractor, but instead a guy who will do your project "on the side" to his regular gig. Is that correct?
When I was working in Northern California, I installed over a lot of hot mop pans. I've seen plenty of well-built hot mop pans and I've seen others which I refused to work on top of. If you are going to use a hot mop pan, make certain that it's a company with a lot of experience and a long list of recurring clients to call for references.
I recognize what "Ed" is proposing to do, but his comprehension is lacking and I'd look elsewhere for an installer. There are many different ways to put a reliable shower together. He's proposing none of them.
Shaughnn
Shaughnn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
masonry mortar to set tiles teaforthetileman Tile Forum/Advice Board 18 03-31-2008 05:55 PM
Shower stall Masonry Mortar bed jpteng Tile Forum/Advice Board 3 02-23-2007 07:58 AM
Cement Mortar Shower Floor JKeest Tile Forum/Advice Board 5 09-19-2006 08:58 PM
Mortar Shower Pan on Cement base rman1955 Tile Forum/Advice Board 14 10-19-2002 11:05 PM
Cement mortar sticking to cement mortar John Bridge Professionals' Hangout 12 03-03-2002 10:12 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:34 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2014 John Bridge & Associates, LLC