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Old 06-22-2009, 11:15 PM   #1
Bob Bliss
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Question on joints & whether need to mud drywall holes before tiling

Hi,

First time posting to the forum. I was recommended by a friend who is a great DIY-er that raves about the forum.

Iím doing a bathroom remodel of our kids bathroom to get rid of the 1950ís mauve and home made cabinetry. Itís a small bathroom, so itís a shower over the tub.

Hereís what Iíve done:
- Stripped it down to the studs (wow, ĹĒ+ mortar with chicken wire + tile is HEAVY!!!)
- Replaced the galvanized with copper & put in a pressure balancing shower valve so the kids donít get scalded (expensive!)
- Put in a 6 mil poly vapor barrier around the tub
- Attached the Ĺ Hardiboard in the full shower area & greenboard on the rest of the walls.

Iím at the point where I need to do the joints and then start tiling and Iíve got some questions:

1. How do I manage an outside corner (90 degree) wall joint between hardiboard & greenboard?
The hardiboard is on the area of the shower (tub/shower). It extends ~6Ē beyond the shower to the edge of the wall. Thereís going to be three different segments to this corner:
a. Bottom 4.5 ft will be tile on both faces as weíre putting a tile skirting around the bathroom.
b. The 2.5 ft above this will have tile coming up to the edge on the hardiboard side while the greenboard side will be textured and painted.
c. The top foot will be textured & painted on both sides.
What corner material should I use, if any? Should I just tape & mud the corner? Should I use a corner bead? If so, what type? Is there a special technique to doing this?

As an FYI, the hardiboard is the material that overlaps on the corner.

2. I used hardiboard in the shower area from the tub to ceiling. As explained above, weíre tiling to about 1 foot from the ceiling. This top section will be textured and painted. I know that I should use an Alkali-resitant tape with thinset for doing the joints in the wet area under the tile. What should I use above this for taping the joints?

3. As Iíve not done drywall work before, it took me a little while to realize that I needed to get a dimpling attachment for my drill to set the screws properly. I had to redo the fastening on a couple of 4x8 sheets of greenboard. While the boardís hung very solidly now, it looksl ike it had acne with the additional holes (I removed the screws). Do I need to mud these holes and the screw dimple holes before I start tiling, or can I just do the joints and then let the thinset cover all these?

Some background on me. Iíve tiled a bathroom floor before, but have never done any drywall work or tile on a wall.

Thanks a lot.

Bob
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Old 06-22-2009, 11:44 PM   #2
Bob Bliss
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Tiling over Tongue & Groove

This is my 2nd post tonight. I've re-doing a 1960's bathroom in a 1930's house. The old bathroom had a 1/2+" mud floor with tile. the floor was rock solid. We're remodeling it because we hated the color & design.

I was planning on doing thinset / CBU and then tile on that over the flooring until I noticed a posting on issues with using that flooring structure above tongue & groove.

Because of the age of the house, the flooring is 1x4 T&G over joists on 16" center.

This is a very small bathroom floor (7ft by 4.5 ft). The floor is solid. I can't feel any deflection anywhere so I'm not concerned about that.

What are the issues with installing thinset/CBU over T&G? If I can't do it directly, what are my options?

Thanks,

Bob Bliss

The floor in this part of the house is tongue & groove (1x4)
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Old 06-23-2009, 12:56 AM   #3
Muddman
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Bob,

1. Get some metal corner bead. Use thinset over it where there will be tile, and hot mud (mud that is mixed from a powder and sets hard) were you will paint. If you get a little drywall mud were the tile sits it is no biggy as long as it is a dry area.

2.If it is just painted wall surface, use drywall mud. And for better results, set your tape in hot mud, then top coat with pre mixed drywall mud. (do not ever use the dust control mud from sheetrock, it is crap)

3.you do not need to fill the screw hole before you tile.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:38 AM   #4
Dave Taylor
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Hello Bob......

and welcome to "Tile Your World" forums.

I merged your two threads because they seem to be about the same bath project.

Keeping these posts together in one thread makes it much easier for all who wish to assist you see what you are planning, what progress you are making, and what has been previously asked and how it's been previously answered.

First off..... may I recommend that you do use our DEFLECTO tool up-top this page to determine if your bath floor substructure is suitable for a tiled surface.

Issues with installing CBU and thinset over T&G dimensioned lumber (planks) are..... don't.

First insure that all subfloor planks are in good condition, well affixed to the underlying joists, and lay flat.

Replace these planks where necessary, sand them flat as required, affix them well to joists using galvanized deck screws, then cover them with minimum 1/2" exterior (type 1) glued plywood with no face grade of greater than "C"...... then CBU, thinset and tile.

Hope this helps. :---)
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:03 PM   #5
Bob Bliss
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Thanks & follow-up questions

Dave,

Thanks for consolidating the posts. I should have just added the 2nd post to the original, but was tired last night and couldnít find it again.. Iím both amazed, and heartened, to see such a fast response... This is a great forum!

Gregg,

Thanks for the response on the corner joint. Iíll use the metal corner bead as recommended and use thinset for the portions that will be tiled and mud for the portions that will be painted. This area is Ďdryí so water pentration isnít a real issue (the kids would have to have a hell of a water fight in the tub to get this wet .. ;-) ).

Follow-up Question: Is there a brand of mud you recommend for the drywall that I can pick up at Home Depot (one is 5 min from my house)? Also, can I use this mud for doing the texturing as well?

Dave,

Thanks for the response on the floor. I was afraid that this would be the advice. I did some addl research last night and found three options:
1. Do the plywood, CBU & then tile as you recommend.
2. Do a mud layer as was done before (in chicken wire, etc..)
3. BAL Fastflex Ė some wonder adhesive thatís used in the UK (saw posts on it both in this forum with John Bridge chiming in and another one).

Given that I couldnít find any US based posts of usage on the BAL product, I think my options are between 1 & 2.

I definitely donít want to remove the existing T&G as itís a very solid, flat floor and Iím not keen on Ďdigging deeperí if you know what I mean.

Hereís the scoop on the floor:
- Specs - 2Ē x 7.25Ē joists on 15Ē centers (I know that 14 or 16 are the norms, but the few I just checked measured out closer to 15Ē).
- I entered this in the calculator & got a DEFLECTO rating of L/640, so Iím good for Ceramic tile floor (using 13" x 13" tiles).
- The T&G is flat and very solidly nailed down. As mentioned in my first post, the floor was solid as a rock with the old mud bed and it was 30 yrs old.

With the old tile floor above mud, the transition from the hallway was 1Ē. I was hoping to reduce that vs. increase itÖ The T&G in the hallway is a little over ľĒ thick. As Iím redoing the whole bathroom, there are no height constraints if I had to increase, just a preference.

Two follow-up questions:
1. Is there a reason that I couldnít do a mud floor again beyond my total lack of experience.. ;-)
2. How close would I be to my old transition height if I go with your recd?
- Ĺ ply
- ľ CBU thinset & screwed down
- ľ tile thinset down
How much addl height should I expect from the thinset layers?

3. Assuming I go the ply route as it involves simpler process steps, how do I attach it to the subfloor (adhesive, screws or both)? How should I orient the plywood vs. the floor? Finally, what should I do with the joints in the plywood floor? While the room is small, Iíll need to do the floor in a couple of pieces because of the geometry of the room (bathtub is in a small alcove).

Thanks,

Bob
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:10 PM   #6
Bob Bliss
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Additional follow-up

Guys,

I already hung the greenboard on the walls. I have a 1/2" clearance to the subfloor as I was expecting that I could get 1/4 CBU with thinset under that easy enough.

Do I need to cut more off the bottom of my greenboard or can I just put the plywood up to the greenboard? While its a PITA to cut hung drywall, I can do it.

What's the spacing I should use around the plywood I put on the T&G - 1/4"?

Thanks,

BB
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:44 PM   #7
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Bob asked:

Quote:
1. Is there a reason that I couldn’t do a mud floor again beyond my total lack of experience.. ;-)
There are plenty of pro folks on this forum that would cheer you on and offer lots of advice if you decided to try a mud floor but I ain't one..... only cause I've never done one. My stock in trade is the plywood/CBU route.

Quote:
How much added height should I expect from the thinset layers?
You may calculate thinset thickness by generally figuring it will end up being 1/2 the notch debth of the trowel you use to apply it.

A 1/4" x 1/4" square notch trowel gives a finished thinset debth of 1/8".

Quote:
Assuming I go the ply route as it involves simpler process steps, how do I attach it to the subfloor
Use galvanized deck screws attached the ply underlayment only to your planks.... not the joists.
Glue is not necessary.
Place the ply perpendicular to your joists.
Stager all plywood ends (don't line them up).
Leave about 1/16" - 1/8" gap between all adjoining ply ends and edges.... and a 1/8" - 1/4" gap between the ply and all solid objects (tub, walls, vanity).
I use a thick putty knife blade to space ply sheets.

Read THIS.... it will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about installing a plywood underlayment.

Quote:
Do I need to cut more off the bottom of my greenboard or can I just put the plywood up to the greenboard?
I think I would just run my ply up close to my existing greenboard..... 1/8" or so.

Hope this all helps
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Old 06-23-2009, 03:13 PM   #8
Bob Bliss
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Update & another question

Dave T,

You're awesome. Thanks so much for the advice.

I'm going to do the plywood route and then CBU, etc..

As with all DIY'ers, I have another question (of many that I expect to still come).

How should I order the following:
- Tiling floor
- Tiling wall
- texturing & painting the rest of room (above the tile skirt and tile in shower)

My plan was to do it in this sequence, but I had a few concerns:
- How do I keep the floor clean while I'm doing all the work on the walls if I put the tile down & grout it first? (should I cover with poly - I bought a 25 yd roll...)
- How hard is it to texture & paint the walls above the tile after its all done, especially in the tub area?

Also, since you're answering fast (and I'm working on it today), do you have answers to my questions to Gregg above - type of mud to use for drywall and whether can use the same for texturing?

Thanks,

Bob
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:03 PM   #9
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About drywall mud,

Home depot carries Sheetrock brand mud, which is a good product.

Hot mud, or plaster, comes in different set times, I would recommend the 90 minute, gives you more working time. It comes in small sacks.Always mix this with a drill, or it will be lumpy.

As far as top coating, (the second and third coats) I prefer to use topping mix (light blue label) because it goes on smooth and sets hard. You may want to use lightweight (dark blue label) as it sands easier, but is softer when set. I like harder surface because it doesn't scratch and ding up as easy, but a vast majority of home are finished with lightweight mud. These muds all come in 5 gallon buckets.

When you open your bucket of mud, always add a little water and mix with a drill. It is too hard right from the pail to apply smoothly.
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:59 PM   #10
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When I remodel a bathroom this is the order I go in.

1.hang all drywall and cement board
2.set wall tile
3.set floor tile
4.finish drywall.

It is easier to do the walls first because you will drip mortar and grout on the floor as you work. And I always finish the drywall last because I usually get stuff on it and nick the wall a few times while I tile.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:05 PM   #11
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Wall texturing.

First off, why are you doing this? Most people like flat walls now anyways, and for someone who has never textured, it will be easier to go flat, and probably look better. The reason they texture new homes is so they can do a fast sloppy drywall job then hide all the imperfections with texture. And it is much harder to repair later and match the existing texture.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:50 PM   #12
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Just a quick note on corner bead. If its in totally non-wet area, then use the metal cornerbead if you want, but for wet areas like corners near the shower or tub surround, I always use the plastic cornerbead. Looks and works just the same but made of plastic. Why? Because water gets between tile and backer and when it meets corner bead metal it rusts. Believe that it happens as I take it out 2-3 times per month on remodels.

May be available at Home Depot or Lowes, but definately at any drywall supply store. Small point but worth the effort to put in the right stuff. If beading sheetrock I use hot mud to embed, if on combi-corner (sheetrock on one wall and hardi on the other) I use hot mud on the sheetrock side and thinset on the hardi side. Easier than it may sound. Hot mud can take a lot more water than standard drywall mud, so no standard stuff near water.

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Old 06-23-2009, 10:16 PM   #13
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Agreed about the plastic corner for wet area's.

But since it is not wet I would recommend the metal. For the simple fact that it is a bit easier for a novice to get down flat and straight. The plastic flexes and bows a lot when you nail it.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:34 PM   #14
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Thanks for all the insights!

Gregg,
Thanks for the recommendations on mud to use for the different steps and the corner bead.
Hereís what Iíll do:
Drywall work:
- First layer - Sheetrock brand 90 min dry time mud
- Top coats Ė Lightweight (sanding easier sounds good to me).
Regarding texturing, I like the look and we have it throughout the house. We actually had smooth walls in the old part of the house (50ís?) and textured in the new (addition in 1993). As the old part didnít have insulation, we had it blown in and then the walls textured to hide all the holes that were drilled for the insulation.

Corner bead:
- Iíll play with the two at Home Depot to see how flexible the plastic is and make the call there. I donít see this section as getting wet so I think Iíll be fine with metal. However, since I want to do it right for the long term, I will take a look. Maybe once a month thereíd be enough kid chaos in the tub to get a splash that would hit this and they will be growing out of this phase..
- Kevin Ė Thanks for jumping in with your input. Appreciate it.
Sequencing:
- My thought was to start with the floor so I have that to reference off as I do the walls. Iím going to start the tiling in the back corner of the tub as I understand that should be the reference point for a whole tile (vs. the floor). However, I think it will be easier when I get out of the shower, to have the floor done. My thought was to use some of the extra poly that I have from the vapor barrier roll as a cover for the floor to protect it while I do the walls. How do you deal with the wall to floor transition when you start with the walls?

Again, thanks a lot for the help!
Bob
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
How do you deal with the wall to floor transition when you start with the walls?
Leave a gap about 1/8" and fill it with caulk color matched to your grout. EDIT: If it is a transition between two tiles surfaces

I do not like the sanded caulk HD carries, shrinks way too much. Lowes carries laticrete and it works well. I would also recommend getting the grout from lowes as well.
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