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Old 10-18-2002, 09:33 PM   #76
JC
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What the He...

Sonny, Im sorry but that absolutly had to be one of the funniest flame post I ever heard....If I read it real closely and did'nt know you wrote it I would swear you were serious....were you?
You really have a skill there ya know...



Sonnie 'da Flaming Poet'
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Old 10-18-2002, 10:13 PM   #77
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Wow!

To tell you the truth, I've never used admix in my mud. I don't doubt it improves the strength, though.

The success of mud screed installations thoughout history has not depended so much on hardness or toughness of the screed but on its ability to "uncouple" the tile field from what's under it. Mass does add up to resistance to deflection, though.

An inch of regular mortar (properly reinforced) over a subfloor that is decent to begin with will support any tile installation in a residential setting. Dave G. has tested samples of regular deck mud over at the TCA lab. Many of them exceed 3,000 psi.

The floating floors we construct in these parts have nothing to do with strength. It's more a matter of getting the level of the tile field up to the level of the adjacent floors (hardwood strip over 2x4 wood screeds/sleepers).
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Old 10-19-2002, 06:18 AM   #78
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JB.

What is the average thickness of your mud, when you are going over a wood floor system. Can you go 3/4 and be safe?

JK
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Old 10-19-2002, 06:33 AM   #79
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The one inch was more in the 1500-1800 range. The 2" have been 2200 to 3200 with a few exceptions either way. That is packed real tight. If you do not beat the hell out of it they seem around 1500 or less, sometimes a lot less. The sand makes a huge difference too.
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Old 10-19-2002, 06:44 AM   #80
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Dave.

The compression seems very low. Why would there be so my advocates for mud? Hell an SLC has 4000 psi +. Explain how mud is the way to go.

JK
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Old 10-19-2002, 06:55 AM   #81
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The Biggest differance John is the fact that Mud is uncoupled from the subfloor,SLC's are not.Expansion and contraction of the subfloor cannot transpose through an uncoupled floor.It wont shear ,because it cannot shear -its not actually attached.SLC's by virtue of thier inherent strength + being attached directly to the subfloor can and do shear under extremes.Dont get me wrong,i love SLC's but Mud is still the best mechanically out there in my book.although I am interested in seeing if Ditra will be holding up in 20 years
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Old 10-19-2002, 12:08 PM   #82
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John,

I haven't done mud over a wood sub in quite a while, but years ago I would routinely go about 3/4 over a sturdy sub-floor. In fact, I described doing that in my book ten years ago, and no one has come looking for me.

I am a Ditra convert, but only over a very sturdy floor. I use it primarily in small bathrooms in my remodeling business and over 1-1/8 in. Sturdi-floor ply in the new homes I do. In it's place, Ditra beats mud hands down.

Overall, though, mud is still the work horse of the industry when it comes to floors and decks. I haven't done any commercial in years, but I'll bet there's still a lot of mud work going on out there (except in Mc Donalds and other fast-food places).
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Old 10-19-2002, 06:19 PM   #83
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Whatdya Mean John!!! I just did a Mudflaot over existing Slab in a Mc donalds 3 years ago.Did something change??
In the Main Dining area,they used a Carpet Padding the likes of which i have never seen.Almost like a cork/asphalt type conglomerat 1 1/2" Thick In 4' x 4' chunks where the Carpet went.Where the dining tables were it was all Mudwork/w 4x8 summitville strata.And im talkin alot of Mud!!!!
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Old 10-19-2002, 06:20 PM   #84
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Well you have been converted, JB. That sounds similar to what I posted in the Thread, " Whats Stronger". Nobody wanted to admit that 3/4 ply over 1x8 diagonal subfloor, was stronger that a 1 inch mud bed. And Ditra also
uncouples just like mud..
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Old 10-20-2002, 11:30 AM   #85
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Todd,

I think it's a regional thing. In the South, fastfood places are built slab-on-grade. Thin set is king. Same Summitville tile, though.

John,

We are comparing apples to pears here. For a thin mud bed the requirements are pretty much the same for other methods. You first have to have a subfloor that won't give a heck of a lot.

The difference is going to be that mud IS structural. The rest of the stuff is not. I stated that I use Ditra over 1-1/8 in. Sturd-I-Floor, which is about the most bullet-proof plywood in general use. If the floors are only 3/4 in. ply, which is usually the case if joists are used instead of trusses, I go back to the thin mud bed automatically.

That's the difference. You are in a minority in the industry if you think mud has been superceded. Peter Nielsen, Technical Director for Schluter, who wants to sell Ditra more than anyone else in the world, will tell you the same thing I've just told you.

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Old 10-20-2002, 12:13 PM   #86
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john : when doing a 1 coat mud install how many rows up do you cut your mud?
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Old 10-20-2002, 12:14 PM   #87
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I think you may be missing the point John K. You keep worrying about strength. If you don't have shear stress, you don't need bond strength. 2000 PSI could well outperform a 4000 PSI SLC if it were not attached to the floor. That is also the principle of membranes, reduce or spread shear stress. In the case of Ditra, they will warrant a porcelain tile over Ditra with dryset. Why? No stress, don't have to worry about the bond. What about all the porcelain floors that were set in only portland cement years ago and look brand new? Why? the mortar bed is floating on the floor and they are beat into the bed, again, no stress.

John B Why did you make me do all that typing !

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Old 10-20-2002, 02:24 PM   #88
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You da Man! That's why.

Steven,

You are going to have to clarify your question. Remember I'm not a union man.

Cut the mud?
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Old 10-20-2002, 05:49 PM   #89
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Ok Dave and John B.

I'm understanding what you are saying. I appreciate you clarifying it. So why does the mud have to be so damn thick?
With the technology of today. Why can't we get mud to be strong enough at 1/2" v.s 1 1/2"? In the remodel of houses over wood floor systems, the transition heights would not be acceptable to the consumer, nor would they be able to get out the back door or remove there dishwasher.

If you can clarify all this. Then I will drop it..

Thanks
JK
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Old 10-20-2002, 06:17 PM   #90
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Dang I think I missed sumthin'

In reference to Sonnie's post
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