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Old 06-12-2005, 03:19 PM   #1
Lewis Mark Rosiello
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Smile Hardibacker 500 Installation & Moisture Barrier Questions

Hi,

I'm in the process of remodeling a bathroom. I am going to describe what I am planning to do and I am hoping to get feedback as to whether my approach is correct and/or advice if there is a better way! I am going to use Hardibacker 500 as the CBU for the walls. I am planning on using 15 pound roofing felt as a moisture barrier between the CBU and the studs (entire perimeter of bathroom). My plan is to install the roofing felt horizontally across the studs using 3/8" staples with each bottom layer of felt overlapping the top of the previous layer (installation proceeding from the bottom of the walls to the top of the walls). For the shower I am going to be using a Swanstone Shower Pan & Swanstone Wall Panels installed over the Hardibacker 500 (and the roofing felt). One question that I have is whether the roofing felt is appropriate for the shower area as a moisture barrier or is there a better choice. By the way, the installation instructions for the Swanstone Wall Panels require coating the CBU with two coats of primer (Bin-Seal or other primer/sealer). This may or may not serve as an additional moisture barrier. The CBU in the rest of the bathroom will be installed on the walls up to 48" and then I will be switching to greenboard above that. I am planning on tiling the walls up to 48" and then painting above that. I have installed blocking in the room where necessary for the vanity, towel bar, wall cabinet, etc. and thermal and soundproofing R-13 insulation is already in place. However I just noticed in the Hardibacker 500 installation instructions that all joint ends and edges must be supported by a
structural framing member or added blocking. I am in good shape with this everywhere except at the interface between the CBU and the greenboard. Do I need to block the entire perimeter of the room at 48" or is there enough strength on the edge of the Hardibacker 500 to bridge the studs 16" on center for tiling. Any comments and/or feedback would be much appreciated!
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Old 06-12-2005, 04:41 PM   #2
Davestone
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The blocking is for the ends, and not the middle of studs, you'll be fine if you tape and mud the joint.The felt is fine for a vapor barrier, but you won't need it if you use a waterproofing over the Hardi.I'm not familiar with the sealer you talked about,or the installation method for the swanstone, though.
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Old 06-12-2005, 05:27 PM   #3
Lewis Mark Rosiello
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Thanks Davestone! Your input is reassuring!
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Old 06-12-2005, 08:05 PM   #4
MTS
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For your walls outside the wet areas you do not have to put CBU up to tile the walls. What you are doing is not wrong, you can just save yourself some money and you will not have to worry about a joint within your tiling area.
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Old 06-12-2005, 08:46 PM   #5
Lola
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Also be warned the Hardie board is NOT a full 1/2 " thick. Your transition to greenboard /sheetrock will not be smooth. I'm doing something similar and elected to sheetrock the whole wall, with Kerdi on the tub surround area.
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Old 06-14-2005, 04:18 PM   #6
Lewis Mark Rosiello
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I have a bunch of follow up questions but for now I only have time to ask one question! Is anybody familiar with Bin-Seal. Does it also serve as a moisture barrier? Is RedGard an equivalent product? I guess that's two questions! More to come.
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Old 06-14-2005, 08:09 PM   #7
bsakrieger
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water proofing sealant

Lewis,

The BIN sealer is a great product, but it is used to seal in any stains, pigments and the like before painting ( so they don't show through ). You mentioned using urock or some CBU product. Why? 1/2 sheetrock over your existing framing should be fine, assuming you have studs on 16" centers and appropriate blocking at edges.

I just Googled your Swanstone panel installation instructions - looks like they want you to clean and seal the sheetrock to assure adhesion of the panels. Since you are 'gluing' the panels to the sheetrock, you don't want contaminants like grease, dust and the like to inhibit a good bond between your substrate (sheetrock) and the pre-formed panels. As long as your sheetrock doesn't have a damaged surface exposing the gypsum, you won't have a problem. If the paper layer has been torn off, just patch in a new sheetrock piece from stud to stud and block it in if it deflects at the edges.

RedGuard is a liquid water proofer which can be "painted" on with a brush/roller or trowel. You don't need that since your shower wall panels are impervious to water. Just wipe down the sheetrock and seal it with the BIN or Bulls Eye or similar primer/sealer to create a good bonding surface.

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Old 06-15-2005, 06:07 PM   #8
John Bridge
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Hi and welcome. Is it Lewis or Mark?
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Old 06-15-2005, 08:58 PM   #9
Lewis Mark Rosiello
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Hi John,

Lew is fine, I guess the way I have set up my online presence here does seem overly formal. I'm honored by the personal contact. This forum is one of the best that I have come across (independent of the subject matter). I look forward to learning as much as I can. More follow up questions will be coming shortly. Day to day life is getting in the way of my weekend warrior activities!

Lew
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Old 06-16-2005, 05:28 PM   #10
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We try, Lew.
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Old 06-16-2005, 05:49 PM   #11
Derek & Jacqui
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My take is that I would use concrete board on the walls reason being that there is to much suction in Hardi Backer, it's like using rapide set. Alright when you can lay a floor before lunch, come back and grout it. Just me but I like concrete board for walls and Hardi for floors
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Old 06-17-2005, 10:33 AM   #12
bsakrieger
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If I'm not mistaken, these folks are not laying tile. They are installing pre-formed large panels to create a shower. No cementitious substrate is required, nor waterproofing if installed correctly. Perhaps some Red Guard in the corners if they are really conservative or suspect about those overlaps/joints.

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Old 06-17-2005, 02:10 PM   #13
Lewis Mark Rosiello
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First of all, thanks to everyone for spending the time to respond!

The Swanstone Wall Panels that I am installing are made of a solid surface material similar to Corian. They are completely flat panels. My shower will be Neo Angle so there will be just two panels and one corner seam. The edge of the second panel butts up to the surface of the first panel in the corner. An adhesive bead is used to seal this joint and a piece of decorative corner molding is pressed into the corner and caulked. Therefore the panels are not overlapping each other. Even if it takes more work or costs a little more money, I do want to be as conservative as possible in constructing the infrastructure for the shower wall panels. Originally I was thinking CBU was the best way to go and I want as much defense against leaks as possible with respect to waterproofing. I guess the same conservative philosophy applied to using CBU in the non-wet areas of the bathroom where I am going to tile the walls up to 48". I was surprised to find that the Hardibacker 500 is only 7/16" thick. Since I have all of the Hardibacker 500 in by basement already let me know whether you think I should stay with my original plan or whether I should return the Hardibacker 500 in exchange for greenboard. I was reading another thread in the forum where someone said that they use 1/16" self-stick vinyl tile cut into strips to fir the studs out before installing the Hardibacker 500 to eliminate the transition issue. Is the 1/16" difference really an issue or does the mud joint smooth it out enough where it is not a problem (the greenboard is already tapered at the edge). If I do stay with my original plan when I tape and mud the CBU/greenboard joint should I use the fiberglass mesh tape with regular sheetrock mud or should I use the regular sheetrock paper tape. If I were to use RedGard in the corner of the shower does anyone know if the wall panel adhesive will bond well to it? Is there another waterproofing alternative?!

Thanks,

Lew
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Old 06-17-2005, 02:20 PM   #14
bsakrieger
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Lew,

I'm no expert on this type of installation, but I was thinking Red Guard in the corners in case of some minor water vapor / condensation issues. If you are using cementitious board such as Hardibacker, I think you are saying you anticipate moisture. If that's the case, then you better look down and worry about a vapor barrier and waterproofing at the floor level.

I believe all of this Hoo Haa is superfluous. I would just place my new sheetrock (or clean the old) and prime it, then install the panels as instructed. The waterproofing is not necessary. That fact and ease of installation should be the reason you chose this product line - assuming you like the look already. Slap it up !!
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Old 06-17-2005, 04:18 PM   #15
Lewis Mark Rosiello
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Thanks Barrett,

Actually I do have follow up questions relating to the floor but I was planning on opening up those issues in a new thread! I'll ask a few now. I have already replaced my subfloor and underlayment following procedures that I researched within this forum and those outlined by the Engineered Wood Association (I think it was Form 30). My previous subfloor had disintegrated due to water damage. I was able to remove it ply by ply although the joists were in good shape. Anyway I now have 23/32" Tongue and Groove Subfloor underneath a layer of 15/32" Underlayment. The floor will be tiled and I am planning to use the 1/4" Hardibacker for this. The question is what type of waterproofing should be used to protect the floor in case of toilet overflow, etc. I haven't researched this in the forum yet.

Lew
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