More Granite tile over Formica questions ....

[penguina]

I previously asked some questions about installing granite tile over a laminate countertop, but I believe I may have gotten lost along the way, buried in that deep thread. So, I decided to start a new one.

I would just like to ask some questions to further clarify what I believe I should be doing for my situation. I will be installing 1/4" backerboard on top of the laminate counter at the advice of John Bridge since I did not want to remove the countertop (too hard for a one-person job), and the granite tiles I plan to purchase are 12x12x1/2" (are these typically 3/8" or 1/2"?). I was also talked out of an undermount sink by John and since I am not able to find a stainless steel tile-in sink, I will most likely be using a self-rimming stainless steel sink much like the one I currently have.

I have the following questions for my situation that I would like clarified:

(1) Regarding the sink: if using the self-rimming sink, do I install the sink before I place the granite tiles, or install the tiles, make any cuts necessary to fit the sink opening, and then let the sink rest on it (of course with caulking, etc.)? Also, I have seen in several postings, that a self-rimming sink with a square radius will act just like a tile-in sink. Can someone offer any additional explanation as to what is meant by "square radius"? And, is a "drop-in" sink the same as a self-rimming sink or the same as a tile-in sink? I've also seen posts by John that when using the self-rimming sinks, there is very little "play" in front and back, so it would be best to install the sink as close up to the sink rail (if using one) so that you do not have to cut a tiny piece of granite tile. Is this the correct understanding? If I happen to go with the wood trim, I would assume that the same reasoning applies? Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

(2) Regarding current laminate countertop: I currently have one "rounded edge" on one counter. Would it be okay to just extend the backer board to give the counter a square edge? Or, will I have to give that corner additional support in order to accomodate the granite tile? I believe only about 1-2" of the backerboard may overhang without any supporting countertop. Also, I know some will try to talk me into removing the laminate and installing plywood and backerboard, but I believe the current countertop is pretty sturdy. I have stood on it many times in several places and I am not considered should we say, "light as a feather" .

(3) I plan on either using an oak trim stained black or the sink rail (V-cap?) ceramic trim tile as the edging for the countertop. If I am lucky enough to find the sink rail in black locally at a reasonable price , I will most likely go that route. However, for both the wood trim and the sink rails, the depth seems to be approx. 1 3/4" for the wood trim (Royal Mouldings) to approx. 2 1 /8" for the sink rail. The depth of the overhang on my current counter is 1 3/8" + 1/4" backerboard + 1/2" granite tile = 2 1/8". Seems to me that the wood trim will not cover the complete overhang if indeed it only comes up to 1 3/4" deep; can I improvise with regular wood moulding? However, it seems that the sink rail might just be the correct size to cover the overhang and the counter edge, if I can find the color. Is my assumption correct? Or, does anyone see something I might be overlooking? (the granite edges from Bedrock Creations, Bordura, etc. are cost-prohibitive for me at this time). .

(4) Do I need to use any type of waterproofing for this process? If so, what and won't that just add more to my thickness dilemma?

I am in the processing of purchasing all the pieces I need to get this project started so that I don't get "caught" during the process without some necessary piece.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[ChasR]

You sure packed a lot of questions into one post. I'll hit the ones I know.
1. A self rimming or drop-in sink is set after the tile is installed, on top of it. Position the sink by using the cutout templete provided with it and remember the sink is larger than the cut out. Most sinks don't have much room front to rear, especially if you have a tip out tray in front of your cabinet. If so, position the sink to just miss the tray. If not, space it so you don't have narrow pieces of tile. That usually means about 2" wide in front. You didn't mean wood trim around the sink did you? If you did then the answer is NO wood. It sounds like you still want an undermount sink. I hate to say it but I saw one (stainless) in Home Depot the other day for I think about $225. Also, there was a discussion about undermount sinks not long ago on the board. Try a search.

2. An edge must have good support, no gaps. You could take a skill saw and rip the overhang off at the face of the cabinet. Then furr it out to flush out with the other overhangs.

3. It sounds like the sink rail is the way to go. If you can't find your color you might find a small wood shop that would rip oak to width and rout the edge for you. That wouldn't take long and wouldn't be expensive.

4. I assume the response to your origonal thread was it's OK to tile over the formica. I would just be leery of any seams or cracks in the top that may let water pass through to the wood underneath. They can be sealed with a paintable product called Redgard, although I wouldn't swear it will stick to formica.

That's my take. Others will be along.

[penguina]

Chas,
Thanks for your response. I figured I'd go for it and ask everything I wanted to know about this project .

(1) I thought the self-rimming and drop-in sinks were one and the same, but after reading so many posts, I started to get confused . An undermount sink was my original desire, but since I will be doing this project by myself and found many, many posts that it may not be the easiest and least expensive way to go, I can live with the self-rimming/drop-in sink. Thanks for the advice on the tip out tray because I hadn't factored that in since I will most likely get a sink the size of my current self-rimming. I'll watch out for that.

No, I didn't mean wood trim around the sink, but rather around the countertop.

(2) Regarding the edge of the counter that I would need to support. I hate to sound really dumb , and I haven't done any "furring" before, but if I remove the overhang from the face of the cabinet, what would I attach the strip of wood to? Advice is extremely welcomed.

(3) After posting last night, I searched more threads on the site and found a post where someone recommended "Floor and Decor Outlet". I found one in Houston and they carry granite edging in 27" lengths (for black granite $19.99). So, I will be going in the morning to check it out and most likely will now go this route even though it may be a little more expensive than the sink-rails. But, I'm thinking it will look a lot nicer! Only problem is, I was told it's 2" deep so with my calculations of the depth of the overhang, the backerboard and the tile, I may be off by 1/8" if indeed all granite tiles are 1/2" thick .

(4) Yes, in looking at all the other threads and responses, I am sticking with tiling over the laminate . The laminate only has a seam on the long countertop with the sink and it seems to be intact. I will look into Red Guard because I've also seen it mentioned in many posts. Would this then be my form of "waterproofing" without adding any thickness as oppossed to "Ditra"?

Thanks again for your input. It was helpful and greatly appreciated.

[penguina]

Okay - today I got lucky! I went to a liquidation sale (due to freeway construction) at a Marble & Granite Warehouse and was able to get granite tiles (Silver Pearl) for $5.50 per tile and $10/sq ft to bullnose. This worked out a lot cheaper than getting the granite tiles and granite edging!. If anyone in the Houston area is looking for a good deal, check out Marble & Granite Enterprises on W. Sam Houston Pkwy .

So, this solves my edge dilemma. However, now I just want to review some steps so that I don't omit anything important. I remember reading a post (can't remember which one) where it mentioned using the bullnose tile as the overhang for the countertop. To do this, I would just start laying the tile from the overhang edge toward the back, correct? The only thing with that is I would be left with the front of the laminate overhang showing. I guess I could set the tile a little over the overhang which would provide a lip for me to add cut pieces of granite tile to the face of the overhang to hide the laminate. Does this sound like an okay plan?

Now I only have to figure out how to "furr" my rounded corner on the overhang.

Thanks again. I'm getting closer to not asking so many questions about granite tile over laminate! .

[John Bridge]

Hi Sharon. Lost your thread, have you? Right now before you forget, bookmark this one. Place it in your favorites. It'll be there when you want to find it.

I would cut the countertop over hand back to the face of the cabinets and just use the strip of granite as the overhang. Set the bullnose on top and suspend the strip under it.

[penguina]

Just to clarify that I understood your response ---- so, I would place the strip of granite (1-2" wide ?) on the cabinet face which would now give me an overhang equal to the thickness of the granite tile (3/8"); then just place the bullnose tile a little over the strip of granite. Is this correct? This way I won't really be losing any counter space? And I guess that since the strip of granite won't really show, it won't matter that the edges are not polished?

Would I install (attach) the granite strip to the cabinet using mortar or thinset? Sorry, haven't come across one of these as yet so not aware how to install on wood.

Thanks again.

[ChasR]

Hi Sharon, Didn't mean to abandon you.
Generally you don't want the door and drawer faces to stick out beyond the edge of the countertop. If the faces are the overlap type, not inset, they will stick out about 7/8" so I want the countertop to overhang 1". You can furr out the edge of the cabinet with a strip of 1/2" thick Hardiboard cut to a width 1/4" less than your granite strip. Just nail or screw it to the edge of the cabinet. Then set the 3/8" granite tile with thinset and flush it to the edge of the bullnose tile on the countertop. The 3/8" tile + thinset will bring you out to 1".
Onthe other hand, if your doors are the inset type ( flush with the face frames) just overhang the bullnose tile 1/2" and then use a modified thinset to attach the granite strips.

[penguina]

Chas - No problem. I appreciate you taking the time to give input.

Currently, my door and drawer faces on the cabinets are flush with the overhang. I think I understand --- I just need to make sure that the bullnose on the tile and the granite strip do not extend further than the faces of the drawer and doors so that the drawers and doors will still open. Do I have it?

Thanks again to everyone. I will be doing some more calculating and fine-tuning before I actually cut any granite etc.

[ChasR]

Here is a typical section showing how it works.

[penguina]

Chas - Spiffy drawing . I will review carefully to make sure that I completely understand. Thanks again.

[lbfoss]

I have several photos that might prove useful from others I have corresponded with. Hope that I can successfully get you to these photos

Try www.pbase.com/monicakm/image/20630816
www. pbase.com/monicakm/image/20630817
www.pbase.com/monicakm/image/20630818
or www.pbase.com/monicakm/image/25348861

these were posted on about page 13 of a google search using "granite tile countertops". I thank Monica who inspired me.

I also have another gentleman's wonderful stage-by-stage pictures but i cannot seem to figure out how to include them. If I figure it out, I will post them. I will ask him to post them himself here.

[cutright]

Linda asked that I post some photos of my recent countertop project. Hope they help.

Best regards

Craig

http://www.snapfish.com/thumbnailsha...058/t_=6589002

[penguina]

Linda and Craig - thank you very much for taking the time to share the photos!

I am inspired that my project will turn out just as well.

Thanks again.

[penguina]

I am in the midst of my granite tile countertop project and just need to get some clarification before attaching the 1/4" backerboard. Removing the laminate backsplash was relatively easy. However, since the backsplash was attached to the countertop, I saw how easy it was to remove the laminate from the countertop as well. It turns out that I do have a plywood base and the counter still seems sturdy. I did remove the overhang as suggested (actually easier than I thought because I didn't even have to use a jog saw, just pulled it away from the counter and removed the nails ... clean edge).

My plans are still to do the following:
1. Use Flexbond on plywood (making sure to level any areas that might need it).
2. Attach 1/4" backerboard over thinset and use 1 1/2" galvanized roofing nails.
3. Cut backerboard strips to place on front face of countertop and attach as above.
4. Apply Redgard ... would 2 coats be enough??
5. Install 12x12 3/8" thick granite tiles over Flexbond thinset.
6. Seal tiles with Aquamix Sealer Choice 15 Gold (place where purchased tile says that they seal everything even though my tiles are polished; poster on forum recommended sealing tile before grouting).
7. Grout with SpectraLoc.

Number 5 is where my current dilemma comes in ..... I remember reading on a thread to leave a gap between the backerboard on the countertop and the backsplash (use caulking here). When I lay the tiles out to allow for the 5/8" overhang, I am now left with a 5/8" gap at the back of the countertop. I will be using tin ceilings for my backsplash which is obviously much thinner than using granite or other tiles.

So, my big concern is this:
Should I install the countertop backerboard to the edge of the plywood base at the back, leaving a small gap, and then attach 1/4" backerboard to the backsplash area to make up for the gap that will be left from the granite tiles? If so, would I then just install the backsplash backerboard resting directly on top of the countertop backerboard? I don't want to begin cutting the backerboard for the countertop until I have a better idea of how to handle the 5/8" gap at the back of the counter. Transporting the backerboard in the trunk of my car was not especially pleasant (don't have an SUV or truck); should really think about getting one if I'm going to be doing more home improvemen projects.

I would appreciate any suggestions (fairly quickly) if at all possible. I took some days off from work to at least get to the point of grouting the tiles by Friday evening and this new situation has me worried.

Thanks again.

[bbcamp]

You seem to have the right idea: add material to the backsplash to make up for the material added to the front edge. Double check your layout. If needed, you can also add a piece of plywood between the wall and the backerboard to make the backsplash thicker so you don't end up with skinny pieces of granite at the back of the countertop.