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Old 11-19-2017, 07:51 AM   #16
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Please excuse my lack of knowledge with steam showers. Could of would of should of done more research before taking on this job. And to compound matters someone started this job and I am following behind.

The stall floor (liner , mud bed,mudded curb) and the floor was tiled by other. Plastic was up and first row of durock was in.

Since then I finished rock and taped.

So now If I am understanding correctly the walls AND floor must have a vapor barrier and the best method would be a sheet membrane so even if I used the red guard the plastic should of not been installed(just like a reg. shower) and a bonding flange type drain should of been used and then every thing coated and fabric used at corners. Is this right?

Before I started I noticed an issue with the liner and told the contractor it should be redone (already tiled) but he declined. I know I should of ran away but against my better judgement I did not.

So I am going to finish it.Redguarg ceiling and walls all the wall down to the bottom where the stall floor tile is. What issues are there with the floor not having a vapor barrier?

I know you guys are going to think less of me now(being a slop jocky). Up untill this fiasco I used to think I had integrity and tried to do everything by the book. I even read the labels on all products I use. I have turned down lots of jobs because contractors insisted on doing things wrong.

This site has made me a much better setter and i really appreciate you moderators giving your time and advise even thou you are making the big bucks(ha ha).
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:21 AM   #17
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Mark, using a clamping drain and traditional pan liner construction for your steam shower receptor is a perfectly acceptable method. If you use a direct bonded waterproofing membrane with a perm rating of 0.5 or less on your walls and ceiling, you're within specs even for a continuous use steam shower per current tile industry standards. Not sure why Goldstein doesn't think your current pan liner is acceptable.

You should not have a secondary moisture barrier behind the wallboards, but that ship has sailed. The tile industry standards actually call for that secondary barrier if your direct bonded waterproofing membrane does not meet the standard of 0.5 perms or less, which I personally think is a terrible idea. I'd be a lot more comfortable with a sheet-type membrane such as the Durock Shower System membrane in your application.

See SR614 in your TCNA Handbook for more detail on steam shower with mortar bed floor and CBU walls.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:47 PM   #18
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Thanks a lot CX,

CBP specs (which I really dont undersrand) state that one coat of red guard at 70 sq. ft per gallon(for steam shower) is good for vapor transmission of 8 lbs.per 1000 sq. and 2 coats with 12 lbs. per 1000 sq. ft. per day . At 150 sq. ft. with 2 coat with their higher rating that is 4.28 gal. which is what iI used today(3.5 plus 1 less waste)

All seams and corners were were taped with alkkali resistant tape and thinset tightly with no gaps. After the 2 coats everything was inspected and touched up,no pin holes,with everything looking deep red.What I would call monolithic.

I still have 2 questions:
1) can I use either schluter or laticrete pipe seals for penetrations?
2) how do I seal around the recessed lights? the durock is cut fairly close but the cans are barely past flush.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:56 PM   #19
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I think you got you some apples and oranges going on there, Mark.

The spec you're using from CBP is for moisture vapor emissions control as from a concrete slab on grade where the emission rate is measured in pounds per 1000 square feet per day. I've never been sure that the product manufacturers' limits meant they were able to completely prevent all such emissions or just some portion. Note that no pressure or temperature differential is specified, only the weight of water transferred.

A US perm (permeance) rating, on the other hand, is measured in grains per square foot, per hour, per one inch of mercury pressure differential and the temperature differential is specified in the test method.

Even with adequate math skills, I don't find those two are readily convertible. I do think we're dealing with a good bit more water transfer in the MVER test, but without a similar temperature and pressure specification, and without knowing if we're stopping all the moisture transfer, I can only tell you the tests are quite different. Helpful, non?

Perhaps we have a building sciences expert out there who could better 'splain us. Even better might be CBP's own resident chemist, Mr. Steve Taylor.

1. I suppose you could.

2. You'd wanna get a recesses fixture with a trim rated for the application.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 11-19-2017, 09:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cx
Not sure why Goldstein doesn't think your current pan liner is acceptable.
Nah...no intention to suggest it's unacceptable. But with multiple methods/manufacturers mentioned and the original poster's stated desire in post #8 that he typically covers his mud bed shower floors with a sheet membrane...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark999 in post #8
...I prefer liquid membranes over sheets esp on ceilings with the exception of mud bed shower floors and up the walls about 18 " then liquid down to that...
...I asked if he's tying in the RedGard into the clamping drain with the divot method, leaving the pan alone since he's got a pan liner in there, or if he's doing something else....in my attempt to clarify. This thread has been confusing to me to ascertain details.

Mark, do you already have a copy of the TCNA Handbook for your reference?
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Old 11-19-2017, 09:30 PM   #21
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Very helpful.

1) I will use the seals but I never understood what purpose they serve since there is still space between the seal and the pipe or valve.

2) I asked the electrician about the lights and he said they would be ok because the trim ring and (he has been doing it like that for 50 years)

Seems I was cornfused about the vapor transmission and the perm rating and I remember what you said about Customs claim of .35.

Does CBP have a rep that visits here or better yet do you have their name and #.

Unless I missed something I did not see any info in their product data about the proper way (specific amount) to apply their redguard on ceement board in a steam shower yet they state it is suitable for that application.

Thanks again for all the help
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:01 PM   #22
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Bubba

Cornfussing to say the least. And if I practiced what I preached I would have a stack of the TCNA handbooks but I never replaced the one I lost.Was kind of turned off that it was only avail. in eeelectric format. Anywho.

The pan is a preslope, oatley pvc liner, clamping drain, final mud bed, and lath and mud curb, no add. membrane liquid or sheet. Remember I am following behind someone else. When I do a pan I like a bonding flange drain or linier drain and one mud bed around 1.5" and then a sheet membrane on floor and up walls about 18" tied into either foam board or durock with liquid membrane.

Pan was done and lower section of rock and tile on stall floor was done when I took over. I finished rock,tape and mudded and redguarded walls and ceiling.

Hope this did not add to the cornfussion.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:09 PM   #23
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TCNA Handbook is available in paper, too, Mark. Only way I buy mine. Well, only way I get them, would be more accurate.

You can always get a Custom rep by calling the tech support number listed on their website.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:16 PM   #24
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That info was worth the price charged. Will take you up on both items.

And again Thanks
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:33 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark999
I asked the electrician about the lights and he said they would be ok because the trim ring and (he has been doing it like that for 50 years
Ask him to show you where the product reports itself as acceptable for a steam shower in writing...and see what he says. Hopefully he's not simply saying what he did to you to shut you up when he either doesn't know or doesn't want to admit that he's installed something as a mistake.

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Old 11-24-2017, 06:08 AM   #26
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can lite hole

Please advise how to cut a 4 1/2 hole in the middle of a 12x24 hard porcelin tile'

One time I saw a counter top guy enlarging a hole on the inside with somethin that looked like a hole saw but the diamond grit was on the outside of the bit. Anybody know where to get one?
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Old 11-24-2017, 07:36 PM   #27
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bump

any body got an idea how to cut a 4 1/2" hole in hard porcelin tile somewhere in the middle of a 12x24 without using a core bit? Please see my earlier post.
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Old 11-24-2017, 07:38 PM   #28
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Make a bunch of pie cuts close to the edge

Knock those out

Clean up the edges with a stone or diamond grinder
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Old 11-24-2017, 08:23 PM   #29
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Thanks Paul

1)Is that tool on your grinder diamond or diamond inpregnated?

2) Where can I buy such tools? Stone tooling did not have anything.

3) What do you think about cutting the biggest sq. possible out of the circle by over cutting on the back side with a " angle grinder with an agresive diamond wheel and then cleaning up the moon slivers left with the inside grinder bit?
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Old 11-25-2017, 02:28 AM   #30
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Its a solid piece of carbide I believe.

They also make them with vacuum brazed diamonds as well as sintered diamonds. A core bit which has diamonds on the sides will also work.

I get mine at Empire Tools.

Try here
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