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Old 12-31-2016, 11:43 AM   #31
argile tile
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> Drywall compound has no bonding properties that would be usefull in this case. I gather you're talking about board foam and not KerdiBoard...right? XPS? EPS?

it needs to trap air well, not keep a (high) torr, though - i don't think any installation method would really hold torr (not for years)

yes - but no bonding is needed. only a good muting of airflow. as far as air-tight (with vacuum / torr of cold concrete air against warm): beleive me - that will be breached somehow. fiberglass (un-arguably high R) doesn't work on a principle of locking out air like a fish tank: it only needs to trap air. (a large gap of "good stuff" that later separated would not trap air, but lightly bonded drywall mud - if it did not crack - would trap air as well as fiberglass would). i really wish i had funding and a lab to run a test on whether they should be using drywall mud not foam or caulk (because it lasts near forever, and does not damage the masonry). while caulk would keep a low torr, something tells me it would be breached. meanwhile i thing "good stuff" would only work if boxed in with wood and flood filled so that separation was impossible since there was nowhere to go: that's the only time i've seen good-stuff work for more than 1 year.

> I wouldn't count on this being structural in any case. Framing it somehow would be necessary methinks.

exactly right - no matter what i do it seems i end up doing more work or ending up with insulation that doesn't actually insulate - R-0.1, R flunk, may as well be drywall R.

> My go-to stuff:

"Good Stuff" i've had terrible luck with. As I said, in every of the several applications I've used around the home save one: it separates from the gap just a few years after application - and are covered lightly with mold. Instead i'd keep my money in my pocket, return insulation, put up wall. Large air gaps make insulation completely in-effective.

I'm not dis-assembling a drywall partition in a few years to see if the "good stuff" separated as usual

...

I'm just about to dab mortar, and I may as well do so in a manner that begins a screed but doesn't finish (the interior) of it (though that's not generally how walls are screeded, ok).

If the foam board doesn't bond to the mortar (i think it will if lapped over slightly), i'd use a little "foam board adhesive" (30-year latex caulk). But even then - 30 year then no insulation? That's also hardly prize winining - and i'd consider returning the insulation for this 14', it's only R-6.

It seems like too much effort for the R though. I have no idea what the $ savings are for *properly* (ie, not R-0.1) foam board on basement wall is, though. Not enough to have it installed professionally by a company I'm betting.
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Old 12-31-2016, 11:59 AM   #32
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Argile, I would disagree with much of what I was able to gather from your rambling post, but I don't think it would serve any purpose on the forum, so I'll digress.
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:05 PM   #33
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http://www.cellulose.org/HomeOwners/...ateSavings.php

for 14' of 7' tall wall (noting rest of basement is NOT yet insultated), says I can save $173/year Maximum (with leakage/imperfect insulation install: $153 if i'm lucky, that's R-3 v. R-6)

$savings added for drywall is: $67/yr (no insulation)

So that's at most $100/yr if the calculator is "not lying to me" (only 14' of a basement with 0 insulation yet). But to get it I have to consign to wall removal (ie if fiberglass is used) in 30 years, or consign to easy (good stuff) install of foam - which - if good stuff separates (and my experience is: it always does): is not going to save anything (extra materials and cost with over-cost savings, $0).

For fiberglass, to have a contractor remove a wall to get at eventually moldy smell of insulation every 30 years, move furnature, clean, deal with trim paint old caulk and such (let's count the fuel burned by them arriving and me thinking about it): it going to be likely eat most of the $5,500 the fiberglass insulation "should save".

See what I mean? Heat is not an "easy problem" for a basement that supports mold. Which is why I'm wishing i had a lab/funding for use of drywall compound for foam board installation: seems cheap and easy and very long lasting: but is there a hidden fatal flaw years down the road ?

And mortar - mortar will work great with kerdi - but few know and will do it. I'm unsure if I will. If i begin dabbing mortar the mason in me will begin to say "shouldn't i do some screeding if i'm dabbing mortar on, not leaving a mess of a thing behind for future concerns?"
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:18 PM   #34
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Argile, I'm having at least as much trouble following your thinking as is Peter (Carbidetooth), but mostly I'd like to know how many basements you're currently working on. I see half a dozen threads out there that all appear to be part of the same project and we could combine them here to preserve the history and let folks see what you're working on and what's been previously asked and answered.
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:54 PM   #35
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CX, the physics class of "getting green" (without spending more time/money than your saving) is hard to follow

I'm working on one basement and a good actual headache this morning.

Thank you CX, and any future project posts will be with the first post and new photos of progress (and not so "contemplative").
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:59 PM   #36
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(still, dis-agreeing with use of "good stuff" is not rambling. the foam board manufacturer says not to use it, and my experience is "good stuff" shrinks and separates it's bond with anything in in a few years unless it is in a cavity that simply won't allow it to do so)
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Old 12-31-2016, 02:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argile
CX, the physics class of "getting green" (without spending more time/money than your saving) is hard to follow
Actually I'm quite familiar with that concept, but didn't notice anything that appeared to be along those lines at all.

I've been a staunch opponent of "greenwashing" as opposed to actually promoting products and methods that might actually be called "green" in nature. But that's all for a different discussion, eh?

If all your recent threads are about this basement project I'll get them all combined here.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:38 PM   #38
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If you see the drywall in the photos above: yes that mold due a pipe leak and gets worse behind it all, the wall had to be removed. It's a basement wall.

I have a bad headache today, and today is more about reading up and planning than doing.

I'm ready to put up metal framing wall partition and drywall, and wish to put insulation first. But finding all kinds of cross-testimony on the internet.

There was also a moisture issue I think is gone (or will be shortly). But I now have several issues and reservations about internet advice I've found:

* hard application: my basement concrete wall is 1.25" off the vertical, but i will install my drywall partition level. horizontally it dips at least 1/2" in many places oddly. i couldn't even screed it - electrical box and plumbing would need to be removed. NOTE: wall is white because I white washed it with good quality modified white thinset mortar before painting with Drylok. But I didn't paint see below. (also I found a NJ mold remediation site that says to avoid Drylok it makes matters worse).

* fiberglass gets moldy, i hear it's not best for basements. many say use vapor barrier - but others say VB works only during the winter and in summer: is bad - and has technically be found to be worse (the real problem was found to be foundations not vapors). FG requires tight installation to work. seeing above: my metal studs are 2' apart (fg is 16") and the cavity oddly shaped: allot of cutting and filling would be required - itchy stuff all over wall, concrete, and likely me - due to poor wall. But without vapor barrier it's not suggested in basement? (that's a [i]rumor[/I)]. My father is alergic to FG - another strike. As for vapor barrier see: http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/7...r-in-Your-Wall.

* foam board (bought some!) requires adhesive. R-tec says not to use "good stuff", and my experience with "good stuff" is it contracts and separates from things after a couple years (except for cavity fill since it's trapped, with GS rated for that). Insulation with long cracks would be a useless waste of time as if I didn't use adhesive - nearly no savings but money and time out the door. Calk (FB adhesive is latex based, similar to caulk) does not do well to close 1/2" gap (though it's been done i hear). Over time caulk gets moldy and weak.

My main problem is: 1/2" gap (or more) wanders and will be near edge of the foam board (the ledge of the drop wanders randomly): meaning FB can bend 1/2" across 4' but not 1/2" across 4" ! (it'd even pull through fasteners). I could cut foam into 8" tiles (size i'd need) - but that's allot of extra caulk and time - and it'd just decimate the masonry with caulk, be a mess if it ever needed to come out someone would call me to complain i'd hope

* I though of mortaring the FB in with medium quality ($16 white modified mortar - sticks excellently to concrete wall scraped thin or thick). That sounds odd until one remembers Schluter's Kerdi and thinset - and remember "vapor barriers are being outphased by some". I nearly did that but thought: then I have a bad concrete wall that has large semi-permanent protrusions in it sloppily all over - i'm unsure if that is a sin - but i wouldn't want to be the one who had to deal fix such a wall to be presentable.

* I might just return the $50 of foam board I haven't cut, and put the wall up with NO insulation. It's not even my wall.

* I have 4.5 gal bucket of USGS drywall compound (general purpose, a thick new formula from them, more than I'll ever use DiY). I think: fibergalss works because it traps air - it doesn't need to "hold a vacuum". I think: it wouldn't damage the concrete wall. I did year that using drywall compound on concrete before painting works fine.

CAVEATS: I think "but it might crack" or moisture could make it fall off (but my wall isn't moist anymore).

GOOD: if drywall compound does resist major cracking (as it does on drywall), then it will resist mold, hold a good air pocket complete seal all around (as one is supposed to do!) (without any high torr vacuum, which isn't necessary). It would be VERY long lasting if sits and lasts like it does on drywall, yet not damage the masonry of the wall if the wall ever is "re-fitted". DID I SAY CHEAP? 4.5 gal of USGS is only $12.

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So I tried it to see what would happen. You can see the pics. You can place bets on how well it will hold over time. It's not dry yet I don't know.

All I know is: it used a little more material than caulk, is allot cheaper than caulk, is allot easier to apply, and messyness - is a matter of skill.

Please place bets or complain about the panel if you wish
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:56 PM   #39
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the pics below are of one panel installed by drywall compound - crossing fingers - will check it tomorrow see if i'll do the rest. the wall is white from whitewash (see above), and the board is white - the drywall compound is simply tucked and scraped on the side (and a little under with the tucking)

(yes it took more time than caulk on a good wall, but i think went up rather fast than to caulk a potential messy bad wall. it was easy, used a drywall tool.)
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:01 PM   #40
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:10 PM   #41
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:19 PM   #42
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Looking at your pics in post 10, do you own a tile saw? If so, I was wondering why you didn't make the L shaped cuts where you needed them. Also, the doorway at the top right, the cut edges of the tiles aren't inline. How will that look up against the flooring in the doorway? For a floor that's out of level so bad, it turned out nice.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:27 PM   #43
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To me it's fine. It's a basement, and it's a first go at it...and it was supposed to be an inexpensive project, so ripping it out wouldn't help that goal...

I tend to be pretty picky and try to get everything perfect, but you know what? None of my tile projects have turned out perfect. No such thing, really...They are plenty good enough, though.

What's that saying? "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough." Something like that.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:39 PM   #44
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> Looking at your pics in post 10, do you own a tile saw?

only a $20 tile blade on my radial saw, low budget

> If so, I was wondering why you didn't make the L shaped cuts where you needed them.

I can't see where any L shapes would go. But the trim is not yet installed (in the picture). The trim is 1/2", 3/4" on one wall.

> Also, the doorway at the top right, the cut edges of the tiles aren't inline. How will that look up against the flooring in the doorway? For a floor that's out of level so bad, it turned out nice.

The threshold is not in yet, of course. The pics were displaying the outcome of not knowing to screed the floor first, and having taken the extra time to lay the tile (as opposed to ripping up 1/3 of the floor and restarting). That for a floor which is "not too important - just dirty paint beforehand" and in the basement.

(the edge at the far door is explained above - it stops as a W shape - it will flow into a room not yet screeded, so what will happen there next is not yet known what will need to happen)

The edge at the close door was done purely intuitively. The direction of travel at the door is most often angular, and a flat edge would make approaching it more difficult. Having an edge offered in the direction of travel allows the heel of the foot clear the threshold when approaching the door at an angle - OR - coming the other way, allows the toe to fall and grab in the direction of travel instead of at a 45 degree angle across soul). Coming straight on the door (rarely from storage area), the angle is un-noticeable.

I think if the whole seen were larger (ie, in front of a building), the scale of it would show it makes sense that each of the two edges offers travel from a path, and one path requires persons to take a 90 degree turn.

On the other hand why come out 1 tile beyond door? Because i had 1/32" left to meet the 1/2" maximum lip at the end of the tile - i dropped 1/32" by careful laying of the last tile It's legal now, offering a higher edge wouldn't be to code.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:40 PM   #45
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> To me it's fine. It's a basement, and it's a first go at it..

Yes, that's exactly what it is.

I hadn't screeded, and had no idea the reason why i should have is: time and effort taken, and job finished on the level instead of comprimizes to meet two ends.

I've had tons of minor DiY experience but never a full room "in a rush". The rush part isn't going as well as planned, which is experience, I have no master so that how things are sometimes.
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