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Old 02-24-2004, 12:13 AM   #1
Tonkadad
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Hardibacker?

I have gone thru a number of the threads regarding which CBU to use and I am still not sure which is the best. I like the Hardibacker board the best, it seems to be dimensionally very consistent and easier to cut, but some of the threads referred to problems with it delaminating. I don't need to be a guinea pig for the James Hardie Company.

Also what is the purpose of the corner dams when using CPE or PVC liners?

My last question, I am doing a shower remodel for a rental apartment I own, the size of the shower stall is approx, 40" x 40"
but the drain is about 12" away from the wall where the shower faucet is located, I am a little confused on how I would do the preslope for this senario.

Thanks for your input.

regards,

Bruce
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Old 02-24-2004, 06:12 AM   #2
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Welcome, Bruce.

Hardi's been around long enough to be well tested. Some of the pro's like it, some don't. The delamination isn't commonly a problem, except with very narrow pieces. If you've searched the threads about preferences in CBU's, you've got about all the information we have available. Sometimes the available sheet size and actual thickness of the various brands is the deciding factor.

The corner dams are used where the membrane needs to be cut to make the folds over the shower curb and other such outside corners. They work well. You'll find photos of the use in the Liberry in the Shower Construction section.

Best thing for your drain is to move it while you have the option. It'll make your life a lot easier, especially come tiling time.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 02-24-2004, 06:13 AM   #3
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Welcome, Bruce!

1) Don't worry about the Hardi delaminating. Once you screw it down, it ain't going anywhere.

2) When you cut the liner around the curb, you will leave a gap right at the level where water will either collect (on top of the curb) or spill out, if the shower drain is blocked. Either way, the water will find its way to the wood base of the curb. The dam corners provide a preformed and seamless way to prevent that from happening. Making them youself is a hit-or-miss proposition that can be avoided for a few bucks.

3) The best solution os to move the drain to the center of the shower. But, for some reason that is impossible, you can leave it alone and adjust your slope. You will be forced to use a very small tile to handle the more aggressive contours of the floor, or else lippage will be a problem. You will eventually come to appreciate how simple it is to move the drain, even in concrete floor slabs.

Bob
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:07 AM   #4
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Thanks for all of your advise, I spoke with the manager of the building and he said I would not be able to move the drain because of structural reasons.
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:28 PM   #5
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Thanks Bob, I will keep everything related to this job here.

Is silicone caulk the best thing to use between the liner and drain?

Also, since I can't move the drain, do I just keep the perimeter of the mud bed the same height or do I keep it all 1/4" per foot and adjust with the wall tile. (Hope that makes sense)

Can I use any brand of corner dams, with any brand of liner?

Thats all the questions for the moment. I can't tell you how much you have out me at ease with all of your answers.

regards,

Bruce
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Old 02-24-2004, 07:18 PM   #6
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Hi Bruce,

Silicone's fine between the lower flange and the liner.

You can use any brand of PVC corners on any PVC liner.

Keep the perimeter of the shower floor level all the way around.

I would pick up the plywood in the area of the drain and see what structural problems might exist. If you can move the drain without cutting into a joist, there will be no structural concerns, and I would move the drain. If you were to have a plumber come in and do the work, he wouldn't even ask the building manager.
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Old 02-24-2004, 08:56 PM   #7
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Hey John,

The floor is concrete 8" thick (I checked it myself) I probably shouldn't have asked the manager about moving the drain but I did and he said no.

So if the drain stays where it's at, approx 12" from the faucet handle wall, do I still keep the perimeter of the mud bed level and just use 1" squares to tile the floor?

Would I do the preslope different so there is not such an acute angle for the liner and the drain connection?

thanks again,

Bruce
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Old 02-24-2004, 09:10 PM   #8
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Yep, you still wanna keep the floor perimeter level, otherwise you're gonna have wall tile problems. You'll only be dealing with a 3/4 inch drop in a foot of run; it's more than you'd like, but it's not a real big deal. You shouldn't have any problems at all with the PVC liner on that floor. The smaller tiles you use on your floor, the easier it is to deal with the changes of plane, but I think the big guys would tell you it's not mandatory to get as small as one inch tiles for that floor.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 02-25-2004, 12:03 AM   #9
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Having started a thread dealing with a Hardibacker
"delamination" issue, I think it's appropriate to clear up some loose ends here....

The attached images show what I encountered on my first experience with Hardibacker, and what gave me cause for concern.

The hole was cut with a 1-1/2" holesaw near the middle of a 3'x5' sheet. The inside circumference of the hole shows the area I thought to be a sign of delamination. The layers are separated for an inch or so beyond the edge of the hole. The "plug" pieces on the right came frome the hole just described. The "plug" on the left came out intact and this hole showed none of the delamination effect.

I think the explanation for this is that while cutting the first hole I used a "bi-metal" hole saw which quickly wore down, and required an extraordinary amount of pressure applied to force it thru the Hardi. I think the pressure applied to the "bi-metal" bit actually forced the layers apart as it progressed thru the board.

Subsequent holes were cut with a carbide tipped hole saw, with no problems or evidence of delamination.

So for me the Hardi has been exonerated. My experience with "delamination" was probably no different than if I'd tried to ram a blunt tool thru a sheet of plywood. Also, I was expecting a product similar to the Hardi plank I'm used to working with, which it's not, but I think for the novice it's probably easier to work with than any of the other CBU products. Just keep your tools sharp and you should have few problems.
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Old 02-25-2004, 12:07 AM   #10
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Here's the second image.
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Old 02-25-2004, 03:07 AM   #11
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More thoughts.............

I just finished a project using 1/4 inch Hardibacker. I ran into some of the delamination issues as well. In my case it happened after cutting/sawing the sheet with a hand held jig saw. I had some odd shapes to cut and this seemed to be the best way to get it done. It was not a serious problem in my mind and I felt that screwing/nailing it down solved any issue that may have arisen down the road. The product was easy to work with and was fine in my application. I would use it again. I screwed it to the subfloor using screws approved by the Hardibacker folks. Unmodified thinset over the plywood...........Hardibacker.........plenty of screws...........very tight to the floor install. Follow the directions. They have a website and each sheet has a sticker on the back. By the way.............I would remove the sticker prior to install. Adhesion issue? The tile went down nice. Just my opinion.

Mike L.
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Old 02-25-2004, 09:47 AM   #12
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I would try to find a 1 in. mosaic tile for that floor, but 2-inch tiles will also work.
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Old 02-26-2004, 12:54 AM   #13
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Thank you all for your input.

An ex-tile guy at HD said that "you have 24 hours after laying down a mud bed to attach your tile, or you have to wait 28 days until the mud bed cures before you can put down the tile" is this correct?

Also is the mud I would use for building the curb (metal lathe over 2" x 4"'s) the same proportions and consistentcy as the floor mud? 4 parts mason sand to 1 part portland cement.

thanks again,

Bruce
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Old 02-26-2004, 07:24 AM   #14
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Hi Bruce,

I am continually amazed at the information that spews out of HD.

Why would a guy who makes the money a tile guy makes quit his job and go to work in the tile aisle at Home Depot?

Concrete (deck mud/floor mud) will cure underwater. Doesn't need air. Putting a little tile on it slows down the drying process, but that actually makes it better.

Answer: It doesn't matter when you tile your mud floor.
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Old 02-26-2004, 07:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
It doesn't matter when you tile your mud floor.
JB, I have to disagree.....if you don't put the tile down for a year or so, the wifey starts getting a little ornery.
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