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Old 09-05-2012, 09:56 PM   #1
madronatile
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exterior mud-set

Any help would be appreciated with my asscovering language for this estimate. Big exterior stone job, kind of new to me.

"All concrete cured 28 days minimum, steel trowel and broom finish, no curing compounds. Slab over gravel bed and sloped for drainage(specify slope amount?). All expansion, control, construction, cold, saw-cut, isolation, contraction, and seismic joints in the structure to continue through tilework. Tile movement joints every 8' to 12' in each direction.

Insulating blankets/climate control to be provided by general contractor."


Miss anything?

THanks!!!
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:21 PM   #2
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Hi Matt,

This is a patio or something? Is it covered? I'm assuming it's not a vertical wall.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:25 PM   #3
madronatile
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Sorry, yes it's a patio. Not covered.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:41 PM   #4
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Since it sounds like it hasn't been poured yet, I might put some language about flatness (1/4" in 10 ft, not more than (x) in 1 ft?) [I can't remember what the last part is] and that it might require extra work and/or materials to fix.

I've found that talking to the GC up front works better than pointing at a contract later. But since your in the bidding phase, you need to get the project first. Good Luck!

I think the NTCA reference manual has the flatness requirements.
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Last edited by Tiger Mountain Tile Inc; 09-05-2012 at 10:42 PM. Reason: Insert last sentence
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:12 AM   #5
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Matt, that sounds like it could be in an exposed area. Since we're in a freezing climate, exterior mud set can be dangerous, especially if you're letting water get to the mud. For me personally, I draw that line at fully waterproofed mud only for exterior jobs.
If you're putting climate control in the bid, then you make sure to be specific about exact temperature and how long you need it to stay at that temp. If I'm not doing the climate control myself, then I specify 50 deg min on the substrate surface for 48 hrs before and 24 hrs after we're done, plus full protection from rain during that same period.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:41 AM   #6
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Thanks Tom and Jim.

I was less worried about the flatness since it's a mud job, probably will include it anyway though.

Good call on the waterproofing.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:05 AM   #7
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Matt, I'm a lot of things, but primarily I'm a mud man. I agree with Tom that waterproofing is one of the more important aspects of doing work outdoors where you are located. You've got to keep that mud bed drained and dry, but you know that, right?
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madronatile
I was less worried about the flatness since it's a mud job
You don't make sure your slabs are perfectly flat before starting your mudwork?



Alright, I spaced out. I still hope you get the job.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:57 PM   #9
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I didn't, JB. New to me. Balconies/decks-obviously.

If you plan on mudsetting the stone it's not possible to keep the mortar bed dry, right? I was thinking Troba or equivalent on the slab and that's it.

Thanks!
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:04 PM   #10
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Hi Matt. What TCNA spec you followin?


and for everyone else, if you're not current or former western WA, we don't wanna hear it.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:07 PM   #11
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F101-11. Don't see how the optional membrane works there.

Skimming the back of the stone with thinset then pounding into fresh drypack, right?

I guess with Troba or a drainage mat the mortar bed can't be bonded. So I'm not sure what the hell I'm doing.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:14 PM   #12
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I'd simply refer to the prep, * requirements, duty rating, etc...* in that spec, if you want to you can copy them verbatim. The membrane is there too.

I also agree with Jim about trying to make it clear to the contractor before he pours the concrete.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:20 PM   #13
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not from wa, but shouldn't you be bonding your mud then membrane over that, thinset, then tile? water soaked mud expose to freezing temps would scare the crap out of me.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:35 PM   #14
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Matt, you're talking about wetset, which is not what they mean. The mud bed would be allowed to harden, then a membrane like Nobledeck over the top, then tile.
The "optional" part of the spec reflects the difference between Florida and Minnesota. Since guys around here don't do a lot of mud, and we're not as cold as the heartland, you can bet that on every one of these jobs your competition will bid no membrane, and doesn't even know why you would need one. You'll always loose these jobs by thousands of $ if you don't educate your customer first, to ensure that the low-bid no-membrane-yahoos look like bids to be automatically discarded and not even considered.
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:27 PM   #15
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The stone is not guaged, variation from .75"-1.00". I didn't mention that earlier, sorry about that.

I assumed wet-setting was the best way but maybe a membrane and medium bed mortar?
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