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Old 03-27-2012, 06:16 PM   #1
yellowjacket
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No Curb Hydro Ban Shower

A little background first, I have the typical 5'x8' bathroom, 60" vanity and toilet on one wall and 32" x 60" alcove for bathtub on the opposite wall. The bathroom has been completely gutted with only the studs left.

Where the tub was originally, I plan on using the kerdi 32" x 60" shower tray with the center drain, I plan on lowering the floor joists under the tray approximately 2 3/8" ( 1 3/4" for the tray and 5/8" for the plywood under) so that the shower floor will be even with the floor outside of the shower.

I will not be using the kerdi curb as I want a barrier free shower, however there will be a 3/8" frameless glass shower door installed close to the outside perimeter of the kerdi tray, I'm told by the glass company that they have a sweep that will control (not 100%) some of the water spray under the door.

I plan on using ditra outside of the shower for the rest of the room.

So in a very round about way of asking my question, Do i really need to add any pre slope beyond the outside of the shower door and shower tray? If so Why? And if so how far outside the door should I slope if any? My thinking is that the slope of the kerdi tray and the shower door should be enough to keep the water going where it should, and with the addition of the ditra outside the shower I shouldn't have any problem with water damage. all opinions welcome no matter how harsh. Thanks
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:32 PM   #2
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If you're using the Kerdi Shower pan, and the glass covers the edge of your shower...no reason why you need any sort of Pre-Slope. If the glass pretty well encompasses the shower area, I think you're "good to go."

I can't say that there will be NO water leakage, but if your glass guy is good, it should be minimal or non-existant.

Worst case...put a towel outside the door to contain any leakage....
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:08 PM   #3
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I see a number of issues there, Wally.

1. First, "lowering the floor joists" of a wood framed floor a couple inches is not usually a simple task. Have you evaluated the floor structure to determine what will be involved in doing that without seriously compromising the structure?

2. I would surely not go to the trouble to properly drop such a floor and then plan to use the absolute minimum subflooring possible under my foam tray or even a good mud bed.

3. Unless you are constructing a technically barrier free shower, your drain must still be at least 2" lower than your curb or bathroom floor. You have run all this by your local code compliance inspector?

4. If you try to do what you describe, not only will you not be able to provide any slope outside the shower if you wanted, but you'll absolutely not be able to do that at all. Your floor outside the shower will need to be absolutely level (or reverse draining) and flat for you to have any hope of opening and closing the shower door no matter how accomplished your glass installer may be if he plans good water containment under that door.

Schluter Systems even manufacturers a foam "hump" for use under the shower enclosures designed like yours appears to be planned. Not sure how Laz was intending for you to use a mat outside the shower without something like that.

Lot to consider when trying to retrofit for something like that.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:10 PM   #4
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Make sure to use some kerdi band on the joint between the kerdi on the tray and the ditra in the rest of the room.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:23 AM   #5
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CX, Thanks for your reply,
I plan on creating a new girder heading off the existing joists and using joist hangers on the rim joist, the bathroom is on a outside wall. I can increase the underlayment to 3/4" under the tray.
I understand about the drain being 2" lower than the floor , Ill be checking with my friend who is the supervisor for the water and sewer district, he is a plumber by trade, I don't need the city with there hand out for $$$.

I dont want any slope outside the door as Im hoping the slope of the kerdi tray will be enough to keep the water going toward the drain. The floor outside shower is level with no slope either way, the will swing out. The glass company has a seal/ sweep that helps control the water but I dont expect zero water outside the shower.

I still havent decided on not using a curb yet but Iwanted some insight before I proceed. Are barrier free showers all there cracked up to be or is a curb still the way to go?

Jad and Naz Thank you too!
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Old 03-28-2012, 06:49 PM   #6
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Hi Wally.......

Quote:
Wally wrote: Are barrier free showers all there cracked up to be or is a curb still the way to go?
Folks hereabouts' have been fielding questions about, and helpin' folks construct barrier free and handicap showers since at least 2002.... prolly' longer.

Do a thread search of TYW open forums --titles only-- using the key words "barrier free shower" and later "handicap shower".

The information retrieved should help answer your question.

I hope this assists.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:59 PM   #7
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Switching gears

Ok, no roll in, barrier free, ADA, whatever ya call em, going for a curb with a mud bed but still using the kerdi drain and kerdi membrane. More ??"s to follow....
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Old 03-31-2012, 03:31 PM   #8
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Question Using Ditra on floor

I have floor joists with 16" OC spacing, using 2X6" dimensional lumber joists,
Plan on using 5/8" ACX. scuff plywood that has the certified core for the subfloor. Plan on using a porcelain tile with a PEI rating of 5 or pebble mosaic or combination of the two. Most of the tile I plan to use is 3/8" thick.

1 Is 5/8" OK?, Im, picky about transition between 3/4" hardwood and tile.

2, Do I need a vapor barrier or is ditra the vapor barrier too? Schluter shows Ditra directly bonded to the subfloor, normally In remodels I've done there is a vapor barrier of 15# felt between the subfloor and the underlayment, On page six of schluters ditra manual, It shows no vapor barrier.

3 will a mosaic pebble tile be a issue using Ditra? The Schluter manual says minimum 2X2" tile.

4 Is Ditra really necessary? I don't mind using CBU's I just thought it would be nice too try a new product.

Thanks again!
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Old 03-31-2012, 05:39 PM   #9
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Hi Wally -

1. Assuming your joists meet the necessary deflection criteria, Schluter says 5/8" T&G subfloor is ok for your tile.

2. Not sure if Ditra's a vapor barrier. Page 6 of their install guide says Ditra allows moisture to escape, so it would seem it's not a VB.

3. Might be best to call Schluter to double-check. Technically, a pebble's not a tile.

4. Ditra's not necessary. CBU's will work equally well if installed according to their respective install instructions. Ditra just offers the added benefit of being thinner, lighter, and an uncoupling membrane.
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Old 03-31-2012, 05:50 PM   #10
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Just FYI.....if you're gonna use pebbles ( I Hate Em') You need to make your slope about 1/2" per foot instead of 1/4" per foot. They just don't drain as well......
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Old 03-31-2012, 06:24 PM   #11
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Lou, Thank You,
How about that same 5/8" plywood under a mud bed?

Laz, Thank You too,

I dont want the pebbles either my Daughters think there cool, hence My wife agrees with them, so I lose, You know the story I think there a current fad IMO, and I bet there a pain to grout and clean.

Your advice on 1/2" pitch is welcome, but leads to another question:

The mud pan is 32" X 60" Drain wil be in the center and not offset,

Will the pitch be the same from all sides to the drain? ( 1/4" or 1/2" per foot)
or will it vary from long to narrow ends of the rectangle?

In a previous thread there was mention that You set the kerdi drain at 1" minimum from the sub floor and screed from the wall 1 1/2" high at the perimeter and screed from there to the drain, Does that seem correct?

Hope My questions made sense.

Regards
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Old 03-31-2012, 06:46 PM   #12
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Wally,

If you have no run further than 2' then your math is correct. But you say you have a 60" shower pan so at some point you have 2 1/2 run from wall to drain. If you do the 1/4" per foot slope then looks like you will be under then 1/4" per foot.
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Old 03-31-2012, 07:35 PM   #13
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1. See post #3. I would not install a new subfloor using the absoulte minimum required. You can if you like.

2. You do not require a vapor barrier. If you did, Ditra would only qualify if you were able to seal the entire perimeter and all joints. #15 roofing felt has never been a vapor barrier.

3. If your pebbles have a minimum of a 2x2-inch footprint, they'd be fine. That's unlikely.

4. Dealer's choice.

Your shower floor's perimeter should be level at a height to provide a minimum of 1/4" per foot of slope measured from the farthest corner of the shower floor to the drain.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 03-31-2012, 07:40 PM   #14
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Ditra is waterproof if you seal the seams. The waffle structure allows vapor from underneath to exit to the room edges, unless you seal the edges, but in and of itself, it's made of the same stuff as Kerdi except thicker so it will hold the waffle shape.

If your joists are quite short (a 2x6 isn't all that strong), it might meet the minimum rating for a ceramic tile installation. Keep in mind, it is not the size of the room, it is the entire length of the joist from one support to another (could be a support beam, a load-bearing wall, or a rim joist).

5/8" is the bare minimum, but most people prefer a little more margin of error.

Do not try to use a tile smaller than 2x2 on Ditra. Each piece must be held up by at least 4 towers of thinset...the waffle structure spacing means the tile must be at least 2x2 for this to happen. Otherwise, if you were to put a point load on a tile edge, it might only be supported by the plastic waffle, not thinset, and could break.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:17 PM   #15
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Kerdi and red guard in shower

I have a unopened 3.5 gallon bucket of red guard,
Can I use it with the kerdi membrane?
I am using a mud pan, with kerdi drain and kerdi for base , and kerdi for corners but want to use red guard for the vertical walls using CBU's

I understand I will have to use un modified thin set on top of the kerdi.

Thanks, Trying to put the red guard to use.
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