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Old 08-19-2010, 08:24 PM   #1
oldschoolg
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Shower rebuild questions

Hi,

We are rebuilding our shower after the pan failed at 20yrs, likely because it was a poor job from day one with the weep holes blocked and negative slope in places.

Description: See pics, shower is 6'x6' with a 32" step in side (cuts the corner). The shower drops down 1 foot from the slabe floor and then is a concrete shower floor. We had the tile setter preslope the floor ready for the pan.

Help needed

1. Step size: We need a step at the 32" side half way down of the 10" rise from the shower tile to the floor tile. What is the minimum suggested step size out from the wall. We likely won't run this the full lenth of the 32" because it will encroach on the shower standing area a bit.

2. Step foundation: We will likely use hot mop for the pan (california - all they do) so would the step foundation be best below the hop mop or build it on top of it? Should we consider PVC - but that seems hard to deal with all the bends of the step?

3. Green sheet rock vs. cement board: I bought green sheet rock but the tile setter says i should stick with that because it is easy for him to get mud to stick to and it has always worked in the past. Should i reconsider this and go with cement board? Reasons why?

Thanks,

Paul
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:32 PM   #2
Edthedawg
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Welcome, Paul

YOu got a lot going on there. I think you have a lot of hurdles, as you're already aware. Some things I think you should undo and start over. For starters, you got some PT lumber in there? Need that outta there, i'm afraid. Moves a lot when it dries, which can kill tile work.

You also may as well get rid of all that green sheetrock. Doesn't do you a dang bitta good here. Walls outside the shower could be plain sheetrock with good paint and a nice vent fan, and do you just fine. In the shower, if you go w/ "traditional" waterproofing methods, like poly sheeting on the studs, you gotta have CBU over that. No gypsum product can stand that.

If you go w/ somewhat traditional methods, you can skip the poly sheeting, and apply a liquid membrane to the CBU, then tile over that. Same rules apply - no gypsum allowed. Gotta be CBU / Backer.

If you go w/ a PVC liner, you can probably build a long "monument" step inside it out of bricks, which would then be waterproofed OK. Not optimal, in my book, mind you. But you can't build it w/ wood, and then drape liner over it, and tile over that.

If you were doing a Kerdi shower, you could make everything easily outta whatever you want, just frame it, (plain) sheetrock it, and Kerdi over it - boom done.

But you seemta not be doin' that.
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:41 PM   #3
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Normally steps are around 11-12". Check with local building codes to see what is required, if you are governed by any.

I would measure out the depth of the step from that wall below the door, then run the step out to the wall on either side so there are no sharp points sticking out. Alternatively, you could build a half-round step. Whatever you choose, cover it with small enough tile that there are plenty of grout lines for maximum slip resistance. You might even consider a vertical handrail inside the shower.

I would probably build the step out of brick or block. That way you can build it above or below your waterproofing layer.

And what Ed said about the green sheetrock.

Are you required by code to do a hotmop? There are (in my opinion) better alternatives out there.
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:06 PM   #4
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Welcome, Paul.

Technically, with the drop you have there, you don't have a shower, you have a tub/shower. Anything over 9 inches above the drain is considered a tub.

Do y'all particularly like that arrangement with the step inside the shower?

Seems to me you're creating a pretty substantial hazard where none need exist. A fella could easily raise that shower floor five or six inches and eliminate the need for a second step all together.

But that's a design question and not really what you axed, eh?

I'll echo Kevin's question about whether you are required a hot-mop or if you are free to use other types of liner or waterproofing?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 08-20-2010, 11:29 AM   #5
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Thanks all for the feedback, good points.

Bummer on the PT - I Just put that in making very tight fits, counterboring and screwing them in - ouch. I didn't realize this about PT taking 6 - 12 months to dry. Well better to know right now.

By building code we are not bound to hot mop -it is just what is most common here. I have heard of PVC liners so i know we can use that - probably others too.

I'm not all that keen on the 10" finished drop - 5" would be better and simpler, though I'm not sure structurally how the existing shower floor slab is tighed into the foundation so am hesitant to change much there.

I like the idea of the half round or "monument" step - perhaps we could get by with a monument w/o being inthe way to much - see pics to see how an 11" monument fits - envision the standing room.
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Old 08-20-2010, 11:49 AM   #6
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If it's slab on grade, you'll have no problems with any weight you wish to add. And I agree that filling the area is a better solution than a step. Much safer.
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Old 08-20-2010, 02:51 PM   #7
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I'm curious as to how you knew the pan failed since the "pan" is basically a concrete tub which appears to be below the grade of the rest of the house?

I'm assuming this is first floor.
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:53 PM   #8
oldschoolg
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Pan failed: Indicating the hot mop itself, evidence was water underneath the hot mop where the hotmop delaminated from the slab, and stagnation zones of water on top of the hot mop. the mop had reverse draft causing pooling of water on top of the mop. It's just a theory at this point.

If I were to use a PVC liner (this would be my chioce with a conventional pan on floor slab shower) how would that work with it coming up the concrete wall 12 inches before it meets the backing. It seams like it would be loosely in position. I do wish i could use the PVC liner - i have more confidence in it and could do it myself.

Paul
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Old 08-20-2010, 08:22 PM   #9
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If you're set on that big drop, Paul, you can use a PVC or CPE liner just as with any other traditional shower. Have you read the Shower Construction thread in our Liberry?

Having the extra drop changes nothing except you'll wanna be real careful to have your CBU flat and plumb when you get below the framing so it's pretty tight against the wall when you block the bottom in with your final floor mud.

Might wanna consider some extra dollops on the back side of the boards near the bottom to make a solid "footprint" against the slab wall down there.

There may be some extra room behind the CBU because you'll have furred out the framing enough to compensate for the folds in your new liner if that wasn't already dealt with for the hot-mop.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 08-20-2010, 11:05 PM   #10
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Something I meant to mention in an earlier post: That knee wall will probably need to be strengthened. Usually a 2x4 wall that's attached on the bottom and one end tends to be weak at the other end.

There are a few ways to do it, you can do whichever works best. The ones I'm familiar with are to use 2x6's for your framing and/or sheet the outside with some plywood, or you can elect to use a doubled-up or even tripled 2x4 post up to the ceiling.

One of the others might have an idea that would suit you better.
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Old 12-21-2017, 03:32 PM   #11
oldschoolg
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12" drop down shower - construction advice needed

Hi - i could use some help with this shower approach.

the problem is the difficulty with the stem and the shower pan and creating a flush surface to tile on.

If this were a simple on slab shower i would PVC liner it, install cement board on studs to 1" of pan and tile it. I'm have only done simple tile install in the past - never floated a wall. Would like to do this myself but it is more complex.

The walls are 12" from the current floated hard pack slope to the drain - done several yrs ago but the tiler didn't complete the job.......

Complexity is going up it with a PVC line seems not so rubust, hot mop is common in this area but tying it all together is the challenge.

The footting is flush with studs on 2 walls and the footing is inboard of the bottom plate 5/8" on two walls.

Could you please lend some advice.

Thx,

PG001
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Old 12-21-2017, 03:49 PM   #12
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Welcome back, Paul.

Clearly, we've visited this shower before so I've combined your new thread here.

1. Did you ever rebuild the shower years ago or are we at the same place we were in 2010?

2. Have you decided whether you'll use a traditional receptor construction or switch to a direct bonded waterproofing membrane shower construction?

3. Have you decided to keep the depth of the current drop in the shower slab level and build a step down to it?
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Old 12-21-2017, 04:28 PM   #13
oldschoolg
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Welcome back, Paul.

Clearly, we've visited this shower before so I've combined your new thread here.

1. Did you ever rebuild the shower years ago or are we at the same place we were in 2010?

2. Have you decided whether you'll use a traditional receptor construction or switch to a direct bonded waterproofing membrane shower construction?

3. Have you decided to keep the depth of the current drop in the shower slab level and build a step down to it?
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1. Sadly never got past the last attempt. Good news is green board is plenty dry!

2. I'm inclined to do direct bonded membrane as no-one in Cali seems to know how to do anything else Most shy away from PVC which boggles my mind. On a simple shower that would be my choice.

3. I was going to keep the depth as the windows are a bit low - would need to raise those as well - which is possible.

I do agree raising the floor makes it less intrusive and less dangerouse for a slip or aging person going down a step. Maybe i should consider this and the work to do this is less than the work of current complexities?

I guess it's been a dilema desing for me from multiple issues, i'll stay open minded to design change at this point.

thx
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Old 12-21-2017, 07:49 PM   #14
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Ok step 1: Regardless of raising the level or not, for the membrane (whether 40mil PVC liner or hot mop 1/4" thick) it seams like I should fir out the studs so that they are flush with the liner surface and notch the bottom 6" the thickness of the liner?

From #13 in this "how to": http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=5434

So it seams i would need to shim out the wall about 3/4" on two of them and about 1/8- 1/4" on the other two. Also the footing wall is not uniform so there will be some gap.

If the Durock floats down then it should be backed with multiple dolups of mud so that it is not floating.

On the right track?
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Old 12-21-2017, 07:54 PM   #15
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You may have to rent a chipping hammer and bust that concrete back more in line with the studs. That, or fur out the studs even with the concrete.
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