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Old 08-25-2017, 02:01 PM   #1
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Cantilever deck

I will be re-tiling a cantilever deck, 3.6' x 33'. The support for the deck is an extension of floor joists from the house, 2 x 10 on 16" centers. The roof overhangs the deck by a few inches, so it doesn't get a lot of water. I'm considering Ditra over plywood, with BARA-RAK edges sealed with Kerdi band/KerdiFix. This method used to be in the Schluter handbook, but has been removed.

One question I have regards tile breaking strength specs. Do they matter? One tile, which I slightly prefer for appearance and size and cost, is a 12"x12" x 5/16" Daltile Continental Slate porcelain specified at 275#, the other is a 13"x13" x 3/8" Daltile Veranda specified at >500#. I am wondering whether the stronger tile would have any less potential for cracking with possible movement.
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Old 08-25-2017, 02:54 PM   #2
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Welcome, Gary.

1. Is the balcony over occupied space?

2. Is your balcony subfloor sloped a minimum of 1/4" per foot away from the structure?

3. Are there railings or posts installed on the horizontal surface?

Once upon a time Schluter listed a method for exterior application of Ditra over a plywood subfloor, but it required the installation of a CBU over the plywood. And I don't believe even that was indicated over occupied space. I suspect Schluter had a very good reason for removing that method from their Installation Handbook.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 08-25-2017, 03:11 PM   #3
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1. Not over occupied space.

2. Not presently sloped, but the joists will be cut/tapered to provide the desired slope, and to provide height for the tile to clear the 1x sill board under the sliding doors. Previous installation butted the tile to that board.

3. No railings. First floor, not high enough for code to require a railing.


I had seen an article where someone used CBU before the Ditra, and was wondering about that.

If I need to add a CBU before the Ditra, would I be as well off just using HydroBan instead of Ditra over the CBU? Whatever build-up height I need will have to be taken off of the joists. It's only a 43" extension, so deflection would still be okay, but I'd rather cut the joists as little as I can.
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Old 08-25-2017, 06:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
...and to provide height for the tile to clear the 1x sill board under the sliding doors.
Not sure I understand that. You really, really want your deck to be lower than your door jamb or interior floor. I usually recommend a minimum of two inches lower.

The only membrane I'd recommend for ceramic tile over a wood framed exterior installation is Noble Deck. And even that requires a CBU over the wood subfloor.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 08-25-2017, 07:30 PM   #5
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Well, the same joists upon which the interior sub-floor sits extend to the exterior, where they supported the original tiled deck. A 1x6 sits on the sub-floor, and the sliding door sits on that. The original deck from 45 years ago had plywood, just like the inside sub-floor (5/8"), that fit under the exterior edge of that 1x6, so top of ply was even with top of interior subfloor. Tile was on top of that (mastic to plywood, no waterproofing). So, I'm cutting down the top edge of the joists so that 1) the tile can be underneath the sill, 2) the plywood can be thicker and 3) I can get a 1.5 degree slope (5/16" per foot).

The plywood substrate drawing detail for NobleDeck looks a bit odd to me, in that it seems to show having the drip edge above the NobelDeck. I would have thought that the drip edge would go under the NobleDeck.
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:37 PM   #6
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Well, all I can say to that is Noble is usually pretty good about their drawings, but I agree that's what it looks like they're saying. I wouldn't recommend you do that.
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Old 08-25-2017, 09:22 PM   #7
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I did find another installation instruction which showed it done the way you would think, so it seems that they need to do some editing.

Any comment on my original question, regarding break strength spec?

Thanks.
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Old 08-25-2017, 10:02 PM   #8
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Gary, the minimum ANSI requirement for porcelain tiles is an average break strength of 250 lbf. Those testing stronger than that would be less likely to break under certain conditions, of course. You can worry about that if you like, but I wouldn't.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 09-05-2017, 10:08 PM   #9
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I'm a bit concerned that the Noble Deck membrane will be cumbersome for a novice, if handled as one piece. I'm concerned that it will run out a bit from end to end, that I will not be able to apply thinset over such a large area without fatigue or skinning over, etc.

When I was considering Ditra, which would have had to be seamed anyway (not as wide as Noble Deck), I was planning to run it short ways across the deck, having a seam run down the slope every meter, covered with Kerdi band. The total amount of seam wasn't much different, and maybe better protected since the Kerdi band would run down the slope rather than across.

Would it be reasonable to do that with the Noble Deck. i.e., have an overlap seam every 6 feet along the deck, sealed with NobleSeal 150? It just seems that it would be easier to do that, incrementally.

How important is it to have a 75-100 pound roller for the Noble Deck? Can it be properly embedded with a wood float or hand roller?

Thanks, Gary
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Old 09-06-2017, 10:00 AM   #10
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I have only used Noble Deck once, for a 3.5' x 8' porch, but I found it easy to work with. I applied thinset about 2' in width at a time before covering it with the Noble Deck. That is, I first dry fit the piece, then folded back half of it, put down some thinset, partially unfolded the Noble Deck to cover that, put down more thinset, etc.

So I think that could work for you for a 33' long piece. Dry fit it, roll up half of the length, and start with placing the thinset in the middle, unrolling as you go. You would have to watch for run out, but if you have a guideline to follow and get it started right I would think you could keep it straight as you go. Maybe put some weights on the loose, unrolled half of the Noble Deck before rolling up the other half, to keep it from shifting and throwing off your alignment.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Wayne
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:45 PM   #11
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Thanks, Wayne.

Anyone have a suggestion for the preferred CBU choices for this application? I'm trying to minimize stack-up height, so I would probably go with 1/4" thickness.

Speaking of stack-up height, I would appreciate help in estimating that. What are the thinset thickness likely to be?

Thinset under CBU ??
CBU ~ 1/4"
Thinset under Noble Deck??
Nobel Deck 1mm
Thinset under 13x13 tile ??
Tile 10mm
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Old 09-06-2017, 10:42 PM   #12
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There's really no reason to use 1/2" cement board instead of 1/4" unless you just want the extra height. You'll want to use one of the true cement boards like Durock, Permabase, or Wonderboard. Stay away from the fiber-cement boards like Hardibacker or Fiberock.

You'll likely end up with 1/16 - 1/8" of mortar under the CBU when using the appropriate sized trowel. Noble Deck installed is around 1/8". Mortar under the tile, when applied with a 1/4x3/8x1/4" trowel will come out to about 1/8 - 3/16".
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:12 PM   #13
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Thanks all.

I have a framing question. The rim joist at the end of the cantilever needs to be replaced, but fortunately the floor joists are in good condition. The rim joist will be dry Douglas Fir. I will also be adding blocking, despite the short cantilever span.

The existing joists (which extend from the house floor) are more than 45 years old, and I am concerned that they may tend to split if I nail them with 16p nails. Would it be better to use screws? I'm thinking Simpson Strong joist hangers and their structurally rated screws.
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Old 09-09-2017, 03:38 PM   #14
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I believe that would be a 16d nail (16 penny) rather than a 16p, with which I'm not familiar?

In any case, splitting wood when framing is always a danger, whether using nails or screws. You can reduce or eliminate the danger with nails by blunting the point with one light sharp blow of your hammer before driving. Sometimes works well, other times not so much. For screws you can drill a pilot hole before driving when you think the splitting danger is great.

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Old 09-10-2017, 04:37 PM   #15
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What is a good brand and width of grout for this exterior application? It would need to have a matching durable caulk/sealant for the expansion joints. Doesn't get much sun, and only a bit of water blown onto the edge (will be less when I add a gutter on the overhanging roof). Rectified 13" tiles, novice tile layer. I'm contemplating 1/8" or 3/16" grout line, probably in a gray color that is a close match to the tile.
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