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Old 12-11-2016, 05:43 PM   #16
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Removed part of the flooring. The toilet has been leaking (rocking) for years. Flooring (1/2" short fiber OSB under 5/8" ply) was broken down and some mold on joists. Will be treating that. Even the dry flooring has some significant bounce to it (it's in the thin substrate, the joists seem solid when I walk on them. The joists go in different directions.
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The toilet will be moving two joists over so right at the change from east-west to north-south. Which way do I place the plywood? I'd want to avoid the toilet being at the end of the plywood. And yes, those joists look like they're not parallel; they're not. Everything is just a bit off in this house. Surprisingly, they're really close to being level. I plan on using porcelain tile, not stone.
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Old 12-11-2016, 06:44 PM   #17
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Jeff, you want all your plywood or OSB subflooring installed with the strength axis perpendicular to the joist structure. If all your subflooring is currently going in the same direction, some of it is wrong. If your first layer is nominal 1/2" material, it doesn't actually count at all as structural subflooring as far as I'm concerned.
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(1/2" short fiber OSB...)
Not familiar with what you're describing there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
I'd want to avoid the toilet being at the end of the plywood.
Not sure what you might mean there.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 12-11-2016, 08:13 PM   #18
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The replacement flooring will be 3/4" ply subfloor, 3/8" ply underlayment, then Ditraheat and tile. If I'm reading correctly, I should end the direction of the ply where the joist direction changes and then rotate the next section aligned perpendicular to the other set of joists its over. Should I put some cross bracing under the toilet, as it will sit right next to the edge where the direction changes? I don't want any wobble there, as that was the cause of the leaking just removed. For the 3/8 layer, it should be offset from the 3/4 layer seams, so just follow the same directionality and not worry about the overhang margins being opposite orientation? I figure at 1/4 joint interspace, about 4" or so.
Also, since the Ditra is a barrier, should I use unfaced insulation? That would leave crawlspace moisture up to the underside of the subfloor. There was also a layer of roofing felt between the old floor layers. Replace it, or leave it out?
I'm looking forward to the tiling part and being done with the tearing out and replacing falling apart stuff.
Thanks
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Old 12-24-2016, 07:40 PM   #19
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Be aware at the big box stores

I've been working on this a bit every few days when I have time and energy. Got finished with the last of the DWV rough in. I have planned recessed mirrored medicine cabinets over the sink which means the vent can't go straight up. So I planned on a 45 over and then another 45 up. Simple, right? Well the result pipe was off at an angle that I thought was just due to not having the pipe seated squarely. No matter how I tried to skew it to straight it wouldn't go. Finally realized that I had a 45 and a 60 in there. Apparently someone mixed the elbows in the 45 box on the store shelf and I went in and picked up a half dozen and got a 60 in there. Side by side they look the same except for the face angle. Fortunately this was in an area I could cut out the fitting and still get it all to work. Most other areas this wouldn't have worked out so easy. Moral of the story: always double check the SKU to be sure what's in the box on the shelf is actually what it's supposed to be. I'm hoping to get the floor boxed up in the next week and then maybe get into some tile.
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Old 01-07-2017, 06:23 PM   #20
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pre-underlayment questions

Got to do some work on the bathroom project this weekend. Got the subfloor in (3/4” plywood) and thought I had it flat when I was measuring and planning the joists. A few high spots and lipage of about 1/16” and were flattend with a belt sander. Notice I said flat, not level. Nothing in the house is quite level, never has been, but that’s another story. The picture is the floor plan so far (size about 7’9” x 11’8” and almost square). Not to scale, but kinda close.
The joists are the thick grey lines (2x10, unknown wood), added some blocking for subfloor attachment and to support the toilet (the old one rocked a bit and eventually the subfloor rotted out (hence finally getting to this project). The subfloor boards joints are in purple, the floor drains are red. I’m planning on putting the 3/8” ply underlayment where the green lines are, trying to keep within the ¼ joist joint overlap so to miss the subfloor joints, and staying with the same perpendicular orientation to the joists. The brown oval in front of the toilet is a spot that is still low by about 3/16” and about that shape. (I was measuring along the joist for flattening and obviously missed this area in the perpendicular direction.)
Here’s the questions:
1 – does the plan for placing the underlayment look about right?
2 – I’m not going to pull up the subfloor to fill the low spot. I was thinking of using a self leveling cement or patch material and feathering the edge. Would I do this over the subfloor and sandwich it between the subfloor and the underlayment layer? I was thinking that this would leave a flat ply layer to attach Ditra to and not have to have different thinset type for both wood and cement if placed over the underlayment. Final surface ceramic tile probably 12” sq max.
3 – the shower drain is the smaller one at the lower part of the picture. It is close to the joist. I’m planning on using the Kerdi drain. If the hole for this is 4 5/16” I will have to move the drain a bit away from the joist to have room for the assy to fit. Is that the correct hole measurement at the depth of the joist (1 1/8” total ply to joist + what ever the Kerdi pan thickness is)?
4 – since the floor is not level (about 3/8” over the long axis of the area), I was thinking of using something like Ardex self leveling liquid backerboard on the shower floor only area. Would probably be a total of about ½”. Will this work?
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Old 01-07-2017, 09:11 PM   #21
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1. Not at all sure I understand the drawing, but we'll hope you got it right. The portion on the right is just two full and almost full sheets of plywood?

2. You do not want to use any such patching material between you subfloor layers. Fix it at the joist tops or fix it on top of your second layer.

3. If you'll look in our Liberry you'll find the exact measurements for the Kerdi drain and can determine how close to the joist you can have your opening.

4. I would never consider trying to level a floor just so I could use a foam shower tray. Far easier and less expensive to make your sloped floor from deck mud directly over your current subflooring. Put down some poly sheeting or roofing felt, some expanded metal lath, and deck mud to fit your shower footprint and drain location precisely.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 01-07-2017, 09:46 PM   #22
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Thanks for the quick reply.
1-the area to the right is 2 almost full length sheets, one full 4', the other about 3'. I was questioning how to approach the area near the junction of the change in joist direction. I was going to use a full width underlayment sheet over the narrower right most subfloor and a further narrower sheet next to it. Would I want the splice of the changed direction underlayment sheets to the right or left of the double joists at the change? Yes, they are separated as the picture shows in the earlier post and the diagram. The gap is about 6" at one side, and a bit less than 5 at the other. I didn't build it, I just live here.
2-on top of the underlayment it is then. Would I use modified thinset over the plywood as well as the cementous patch to attach Ditra?
3- I will plan for the larger hole then.
4- did a mud shower base about 5 years back in the upstairs bathroom. Never got it quite right and eventually gave up and installed a tub. I may give it another go, but will think about it. I still have to frame out the closet for this project, so I have some time for contemplation and mud meditation.
Thanks
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Old 01-07-2017, 10:40 PM   #23
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I would also plan to have a movement accommodation joint in the tile surface over that change in direction of the joist structure, but that's entirely up to you.
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:34 PM   #24
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Underlayment tied to subfloor and joists: problem?

Framing in the closet and shower enclosure today. There are studs that run from ceiling to floor and are tied into the joists above and those below through the 3/4 subfloor and 3/8 underlayment. Before this step I took care to screw the underlayment to the subfloor but avoided tying to the joists (550 screws - I was bent over the rest of the day). No real option to get the enclosure solidly attached than to bolt it down and the underlayment was already down when the closet change request came through.
What kind of disaster am I getting into with this wall pinning the underlayment to the joist below in this area (runs from wall to wall and be tiled inside the closet as well)?
Also, the floor is flat, but about 1/4" out of level in about 8-9'. This takes in the shower floor and my plan is to use a Kerdi base with a liquid backer board to level this area only. Since this will be a board to cement type interface vs. to plywood, do i use an unmodified thinset in this case. (Yes, I'm getting to the actual tiling stage soon!). Thanks
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:44 PM   #25
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By underlayment, do you mean a second layer of plywood subflooring, or something else?

By "shower enclosure," do you mean some sort of pre-fab unit, or are we talking about framing for a walk-in shower?
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Old 01-23-2017, 01:08 PM   #26
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yes, the 2nd layer of plywood is the underlayment
It's a stud framed walk in shower
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:29 PM   #27
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Tile selection questions

Slowly making progress on the bathroom project. A few questions to the group before I get too deep in the wrong direction:
1 – I’ve been tile shopping and am thinking about AO’s Stone Claire porcelain tile for floor & wall. It’s been ~15 years since I did the upstairs bathroom surround and tile selection has changed since that time (most everything was standard ceramic at this time – at least what was affordable then). The moisture absorption of the floor tile is < 0.5% and the wall tile <20%. Do I need to be concerned about soggy wall tile? I’ll be using the Kerdi membrane. Why the difference? I thought floor and wall tiles were the same except for thickness and sometimes matte vs. gloss glaze.
2 – I’m waiting to pick out the tile (as to size) before building the niches so I can size the niche so the edges are at grout lines. Am I over thinking this?
3 - The floor is now flat, but has a gradual slope. I used Henry liquid backerboard to level the shower pan area for the Schluter pan (the whole house has various slopes). Used the Henry primer beforehand as directed. I have a lot of the primer left. Will be putting Ditra on the floor (plywood) and the plan is for modified thinset under the Ditra. Would I get better adhesion using the primer on the floor and unmodified thinset for the Ditra?
Thanks all. Will post pictures once I get something further than the bathroom bone stage (very soon – it actually looks like something now!)
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:55 PM   #28
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Thinset layers thickness

Getting the shower plumbing in (making progress). The shower valve instructions call for the front edge of the valve housing to be a set distance back from the finished surface. The drywall is 1/2", the tile is 5/16", and I figure the kerdi membrane adds maybe 1/16 (probably more like 1/32nd). How much should I figure for the thinset layers under the kerdi and the tile? By the time I get the tile on, I won't have access to the wood framing the plumbing is mounted to. Thanks.
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Old 02-06-2017, 10:04 PM   #29
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Common question, Jeff. The Kerdi plus the mortar to install it makes probably only 1/16th of an inch or so. The industry standard says the minimum thinset thickness under your tiles when set should be 3/32nds of an inch.

If you're really concerned, make a small test board using your materials, your tools, and your technique and measure the result.

Set your valve, then install the trim (escutcheon) and see if it all fits satisfactorily. Adjust as necessary.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 02-12-2017, 03:41 PM   #30
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drywall behind kerdi

Got the bench for the shower built (more like overbuilt, I could park my truck on it) and just about finally done with the drywall going up (still have the closet to do). The question is what to do with the recesses (the thinner edges where one sheet meets another) in the sheetrock in the shower area? John's ebook says either fill it or not before the kerdi goes up depending on the tile size. Do I use drywall compound (I usually use setting compound for these) or thinset? If I do use thinset, modified or not? I'm thinking modified as I'd be letting it set fully before putting the kerdi up with non-modified. Thanks.
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