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Old 11-20-2016, 03:42 PM   #1
Gozo
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10 years in the making bathroom remodel

Hi all,
First post, but have been reading for some weeks. When I say 10 year remodel, itís not that itís been going on for that long, just how long Iíve been putting it off. Iíve been doing every other project around the house dreading this one. I do have some tile experience with tub surrounds and floors, but not with a shower yet.
We have a 1980ís stick built 2 story over a crawl space. Our small bathroom (7x8) off the master bedroom has been needing a remodel since we moved in 20 years ago. Life got in the way. Recently some of the tiles around the toilet came up (theyíve been doing that in various places for years Ė just keep cementing Ďem down and will get to it ďlaterĒ) I noticed the area was wet (vs. damp) and remove the toilet and the flange was just hanging there. The wood had rotted out and the screws were into mush. I guess the bowl had been rocking and compacted the wax ring. Went under the house and it was wet all the way through. For added fun, the whole flooring of the house is 5/8Ē OSB, no ply at all, just the one thin layer of OSB. No wonder the hardwood has squeaks all over. Even the cat walking will elicit a squeak from the boards.
On to the project now that Iím concerned the thing will collapse into the crawl space. No more putting it of. The tear out starts next weekend. I plan to expand the space into the useless hallway that leads to the bathroom so it will be 7x11 afterwards.

Two sets of questions; Iíll pose the first as ďpre tileĒ and the second as ďtileĒ.
I will be tearing out to the joists and putting down ĺ + 3/8 ply, checking level and flat. Going to be using Schluter system
Pre tile:
1 - On the shower bench framing (thinking of a neo style shape Ė cube with a corner sliced off from top to bottom) and mounting: when using the presloped Schluter pan, do I lay the pan and put the box on top of it (Iím thinking it will not be stable and crush the foam over time), or cut the foam pan around it so the bench sits flat on the plywood (and screw it down)?
2 Ė when using the kerdi corners, does the addition of the band over the corner and kerdi sheet cause too much thickness?
3 Ė Iím concerned about thickness at the junctions of ditra on the floor.
4 Ė Schluter says non-modified thinset (Iíll be using ditraset), but Iíve read that modified for use between sheetrock and kerdi and ply and ditra. Which? Also, Iíll have about 150 sqft of tile between the floor and shower, so 300 sqft of thinset (under Schlter, and again under tile). How much thinset should I expect to need (I figure on some wastage until I get the hang of it)?

Iíll try to attach some pics of whatís there now. Yeah, I know, itís an abomination and the tile setter should be flogged, but then again its 25-ish years later. Yes, in the last pic, the tiles are humped up as the OSB swelled (that's next to the toilet flange).
Thanks
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:44 PM   #2
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Part 2 questions

Now for some ďtile and afterĒ questionsÖ
1 - Iíd like to use a glass sliding shower door, like the Vigo Elan series. It looks like the fixed panel uses brackets screwed into the curb. I read that thatís not a good long term idea. Silicone gooped into the mounting holes enough? Other thoughts? Epoxy? What kind? Iím not envisioning epoxy holding glazed tile to smooth metal very well. I picture bending over in the shower, hitting my fat bottom against the glass and the whole thing comes tumbling down.
2 Ė still on the glass mounting: If thereís a gentle inward slope of the top of the curb, wouldnít the bracket be tilted inward a bit? Would that cause the galss to be constantly torqued just a bit, leading to stress (and eventual shatter)?
3 - I havenít picked out tile yet, but I suspect it will not have a bullnose option and Iím not up to making my own (some of what you guy do here is incredible!). I am thinking of going with rondec. Does the cavity under the curl of the rondec get filled with thinset to keep it from deforming if kicked or stepped on, or it it solid enough to take abuse with just setting it along with the tile? Does the anodized finish wear down over time and use?

Thanks to all. Iím sure Iíll have more questions as things progress. The demo and reframing is going the biggest and least fun of the project. Knowing my time schedule, I shooting for an Easter-ish completion date. Iíll post pics are interesting stuff comes up. Not quite 100% sure whatís behind the walls and such.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:45 PM   #3
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Jeff,

Welcome to the forum.

1- What bench? If foam, either way will work depending on your inseam measurement.

2- Not really. You can hold the banding back from the corner as long as you get 2 inches over the pre-made corner.

3- Got a question for us here? Shouldn't be any buildup more than 1 layer of kerdi over the ditra to bond the floor waterproofing to the shower waterproofing.

4- Follow the kerdi instructions. You can use Ditraset for everything though. A kerdi trowel will meter out a 50 pound bag to 100 - 120 sf, I'd say. A 1/4" square notch will spread to 75 sf. A 1/2" square notch will get you 45-55 sf.

5- You can drill as far as the thinset, or use 100% silicone to secure the glass to the curb as shown below.

6- see #5

7- Yes, no.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:46 PM   #4
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Those glass shims get cut off flush to the face of the glass panel before siliconing.
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:45 PM   #5
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Now I'm more confused

Paul, if you drill down to the thinset, I can see how it doesn't compromise the waterproofing, but how you you get any lateral strength from the mounting with the screw only in maybe 1/2" and then via an anchor of some sort? I wouldn't think there'd be much bite into the tile or thinset. That was why I was thinking of the wood curbing vs a Kerdi curb; screwing into foam wouldn't be my idea of a stable mounting. Lots to learn.
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:53 PM   #6
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Welcome, Jeff.

You do not ever want to let anyone drill through your waterproofing layer on any horizontal surface in a wet area. Ever. For any reason.

It's not necessary for the installation of glass shower doors or enclosures and if your glass company doesn't know how to do it properly, I recommend you select a different glass company.

You need not screw into the horizontal surfaces to do such mounting. There are some types of door hardware that require a shallow drilling (think that may be what Paul is referring to) along with their epoxy bonding material, but in general you don't even need that.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:17 PM   #7
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The fact that Kerdi makes a foam curb should tell you something about the necessity for drilling into a horizontal surface. Why would you even consider that? There's absolutely no reason to drill into the curb.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:17 AM   #8
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Curb question settled

That makes up my mind on that. I'll let the glass folks worry about at the job bid process. Requirement #2 will be no drilling in to curbing.
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Old 11-26-2016, 08:34 AM   #9
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Started demo yesterday

Began tearing out the bathroom. Got all the fixtures out and opened up the wet wall (yes it was wet - damp actually from the wet flooring from the leaking toilet flange). Is 2x4 to the outside wall, so not very deep at all, the 3" vent/drain pipe just fits. I discovered why the sinks and shower gurgle and don't drain well on occasion... not vented at all. So not the simple extend the toilet flange pipe 18" and reframe, but rework the drain system. Now you know why this has been pushed to the back of the line for 10 years.
Here's a picture of the excellent tile job that I've been gluing back here, there, and everywhere over the years:
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He got good coverage with the invisible mastic. Some had some degree of coverage, but in most areas the trowel ridges were still pristine. Mostly held together by the grout and the adjacent tile.
Flooring question - As I'm tearing out the rotted 5/8 ply over 5/8 OSB over short span (6-1/2') still in decent shape 2x10 joists, I'm thinking of 3/8 ply as a base for ditra heat (I asked the the SO about in floor heat and she said "no", but after visiting her sister over the holiday with the heated floor, it became "I want that") over 3/4 ply to the joists. With the tile on top the transition from the bedroom hardwood would not be as severe as having the additional OSB layer under this all.
Would this be sufficient from a weight bearing point of view?
I'll post progress pics as I get into the tile prep, but with the plumbing and framing that needs to get done, it may be a while.
Also, on the question about drilling into the curbing for glass mounting. I called 3 glass and shower install places locally and specifically asked how they attach the stationary glass and all said they drill into the curb and put silicone around the screw hole to keep water out and they've never had a problem. (did they follow up? I wouldn't.) 2 said they use a stainless steel screw so it will never rust. I'll cross that bridge when I get to that stage.
Thanks all.
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Old 11-26-2016, 08:44 AM   #10
Todd Groettum
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Hows your sill plate ( if its main floor outside wall??

I love schluter products but not overly fond of the pans and that entire system....Its expensive and complicated for a first timer IMHO...

There is more than one way to skin a cat so to speak...the hard way the easy way and the way easier way....they all work with the right advice and a little attention to detail...

Alot of the boys here r fond of the schluter shower system...Pro's who use it alot seem to have Much better success....

Laticrete Hydroban is far easier for a DIY guy and it is a tremendous product.

If corners concern you ( and corners on your curb will and i stress will be an issue for the inexperienced) Look into Laticretes Hydroban....

My Opinion....But I am Retired so what the heck do I know
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Old 11-26-2016, 02:45 PM   #11
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This I had to share

More in wall surprises. I found this:
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I stood there just looking at this for a good 5 minutes, trying to figure out how the past homeowner did this. It's behind the glued on drywall and goes under the insulation, so the order was put wire in OVER the framing and then push the insulation in, then glue drywall on. This was another builder special. No drain venting, I can see that, glugs, gurgles and clogs. No one dies so fast. Hang a picture in the bathroom - wham - zap. This is right at eye level, right between where the twin sinks were. The adjacent studs had the same wire technique. This is on a lighting circuit, so no GFI. Also there was no box to the fixture, just wirenuts and the lamp toggle bolted to the the drywall. I've seen and fixed a few of those in other rooms over the years. I'll admit I've neglected to put a nailing plate over wires thru studs now and then, so I'm not without fault. I wonder what other death traps I'll find. I'm afraid to go check and see it if permits were even pulled when this thing was built. I'll post other "winners" if they come up. Thanks.
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Old 11-26-2016, 06:14 PM   #12
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Wheee! Looks like they slotted the drywall to fit over wire, eh? Don't wanna be drilling holes in those studs you know, house might collapse!

Makes one wonder doesn't it? They obviously put some effort into doing it.
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Old 12-01-2016, 11:34 AM   #13
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Demo done

Now that all the tear out is done (except for the floor - I'm using it to stand on right now), the framing and plumbing vents work (in walls and up) is under way.
The house was built with a brick fireplace pretty much smack in the middle of the house (maybe 65/35) and the bathroom sits halfway on that dividing line. The reason I bring this up is the main part of the house, the joists run widthwise. On the lesser part of the house, they run lengthwise (well actually widthwise to the dimensions of that part of the house, but perpendicular to the other part). The junction under the subfloor is just about where I need to put the drain and is causing a small shift on where I can place the shower.
Two questions:
1 - If I shorten the presloped Schluter pan 4", I can get the Kerdi drain tail piece to just miss the joist. Is it OK to add an additional layer of 3/4" plywood to the shower pan area? This would put the shower floor a bit higher than the rest of the room (that's fine with me), and I could make the larger hole in the plywood and taper it down to where it gets to the joist level with the PVC pipe flange just missing the joist. I'm assuming it has a hub connection.
2 - On shortening the pan the widthwise edge will be lower toward the center than the edges. If its a 1/4" per foot slope, it would be 1/12" difference, which I probably wouldn't notice, or I could go with a rondec inside edge that would make it even less noticeable. If it's more that that, could I taper up the thinset (either above the membrane, or below), to increase the slope locally over 6" or so?
Thanks
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:35 AM   #14
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Notch that stud, 2 simple cuts and a sharp chisel) inset the wire in the notch and put wiregaurd over it on the stud
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:28 PM   #15
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electrical botch job

Rather than play with what was there, I just tore it all out and did it right. Easier, and I'll sleep better. Still mentally preplanning the shower tile configuration.
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