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Old 09-12-2017, 07:54 PM   #1
Dan206
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subfloor and ditra tile question

Hi,

I'm planning to have someone install tile in our foyer and kitchen (renovating). The foyer and kitchen connects to each other. Total sq ft is roughly 160.

I believe the flooring is 1/2" plywood (CDX maybe? but definitely not OSB).
The joists are 16 oc.
Tile would probably be porcelain 12" x 24".
grout would either be epoxy or polyurethane.
underlayment would be ditra.
crawlspace below the foyer and kitchen. Home is a split level and built in the late 70s.
Existing flooring material is vinyl tile in the foyer and laminate in the kitchen.

There is some deflection, bounce, to the floor. Things tend to shake when my three yr old runs and jumps in the kitchen. I'm not sure what's considered normal and acceptable for tile.

Q1 I had a few contractors out and they pretty much stated that i should just put 1/2" backerboard down to help with the deflection and stiffen up the floor. Is this true? I read an article on floorelf's site and it stated that backerboard really isn't going to help with the deflection or stiffening of the floor. it's more as an underlayment for tile.


Q2. Is 1/2" plywood and ditra xl sufficient? I called into schulter support line and one rep said it is but it's not in the schluter handbook nor can he find any reference. I'll probably call again and see what someone else states. This is the ideal option to limit the height of the floor and cut cost for another wood/backerboard underlayment.

Q3. If 1/2" plywood is not okay, do you recommend adding 1/4 or 1/2 plywood or backerboard, along with ditra. One contractor said plywood while another said backerboard.


Q4. Besides sistering the joists, can I just somehow have someone put 2x4 across each joist to help stiffen it from below?

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:11 PM   #2
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how do you waterproof the floor and wall transition in kitchen

Hi,

I'm planning a kitchen reno that includes new tile flooring and wanted to know what's normal when dealing with the wall and flooring transition. In case there's a water leak or someone drops a cup full of water, I don't want it to seep through the expansion joints around the perimeter of the floor.

I'll be using ditra for the underlayment, kerdi for the joints and perimeter with 2" lap up the wall. Can I just nail azek pvc baseboard over the kerdi making sure the nail is an inch or so above the flooring.

What's typically done in a kitchen? I know for bathrooms, you can use tile on the wall, but i think tile would look funny in the kitchen. Any suggestions is greatly appreciated.

Dan
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:13 PM   #3
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Hi Dan, click on "Deflecto" in the dark blue bar above to see if your floor is stout enough for tile.

The 1/2 inch is too thin. I would add 1/2 inch plywood to what you have and then go with the regular Ditra. Cement board won't add any strength to the floor.

Many times adding a beam under the floor joists is the way to stiffen the floor.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:39 PM   #4
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I don't usually water proof a kitchen floor or a bathroom floor for that matter. What I am about to suggest is only being suggested because you are using ditra on the floor. I do not know if this is an approved use of kerdi and we only like to suggest things that have been approved by the manufacture. No jury rigging here!
That said, get your roll of kerdi band. Seal up your seems between the rolls or sheets of ditra. Take this kerdi band and run it around the perimeter and 2 inches +/- up the walls. This will allow your kitchen floor to hold water like a bath tub, although do so at your own risk

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Old 09-12-2017, 09:47 PM   #5
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Ditto what Davy says. I am surprised that it only has 1/2 ply 16oc already. I am pretty sure that is too thin for anything.

#4 How long is the span? I am picturing adding peir blocks, 4x4's and a beam.

Really need to know more info like joist size, span, pier location. 2x4's might not add much strength in that configuration.

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Old 09-12-2017, 11:32 PM   #6
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YOu can do what you suggest, but if you get a lot of water, it will just flow out into other rooms, so won't ever get very deep in the kitchen. If it gets that bad, you'll have other problems in the house! But, sealing the seams of the Ditra and putting a band around the room won't cost much in time or materials. You can use any baseboard you wish. It's not normal, at least in a residential kitchen, to get significant water on the floor. Now, a commercial kitchen, they may use a hose to wash it down, but that's a different story.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:13 AM   #7
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I doubt you have 1/2" plywood only. Some houses built in the 70's had 1/2" on the joists, then 3/4" particle board on top of that. If it is only 1/2", there's no wonder it feels bouncy.

Start with the joist system, though. If you can't get it up to snuff, none of the rest of it will matter. Use the Deflecto in the blue bar above and tell us what you have.
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:40 AM   #8
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Thanks for the feedback. I'm just trying to see what contractors or tile setters normally do to waterproof the transitions in a kitchen along with wood or pvc baseboards. I have two little boys and hoping to limit the chance of spilled water seeping under the cabinets/fridge and through the expansion gap between the floor and walls.
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:50 PM   #9
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I never waterproof kitchen floors. Water is fine on tile. Standing water and vapor is a different story. In my bathrooms I do apply kerdi band to the corners wrapped up behind my tile base. This is probably overkill, especially away from the shower area, but the pic of a room wrapped in waterproofing does looks nice in my job file.


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Old 09-13-2017, 07:59 PM   #10
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Welcome, Dan.

It'll help if you'll keep all your project questions on one thread so folks can see what you're working on and what's been previously asked and answered. We can give it a more generic title any time you'd like to suggest one.
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Old 09-14-2017, 10:57 AM   #11
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I like to use wood baseboard in bathrooms. It wouldn't hurt to use wood in the kitchen. I do not like the way the pvc baseboard looks. Looks cheap, even after it's painted.
Here is a tip. Don't buy baseboard, trim, crown, etc from home depot or Lowe's. Find a place that specializes in it. Around these parts we have places like The door and window shop. Baseboard, trim cost at least 50% less than the box stores.

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Old 09-17-2017, 10:27 AM   #12
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Thanks guys for all the wonderful feedback. I did end up speaking to our local Schluter rep and he stated that i would need an additional 1/2" underlayment. He preferred wood vs cement board. As for the kerdi around the perimeter, he said it was up to me. I don't think it's "supported" but it's more of a cheap insurance policy.

Well my plan now would be to put down 5/8" advantech with glue (dap smartbond) on top of my existing 1/2" subfloor and screw it down. Then ditra, kerdi the seams and perimeter and finally tile.

More questions:
1. Off of the foyer, we have two steps going down to the family room. If the foyer is raised by roughly an inch (subfloor+ditra+tile), what do you recommend to cover the wood subfloor edge from showing. Some wood trim? For the tile part, i'm considering a schluter profile. I'm having the tile contractor tile under the hand rails.
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Old 09-17-2017, 11:02 AM   #13
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You'd create more problems than you'd solve by using adhesive between the layers. The Smartbond is designed for gluing subfloor to joists...makes for a tight, squeak free floor.

Better to screw it and offset seams. 6" spacing perimeter, 8" field.
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Old 09-17-2017, 03:42 PM   #14
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Why do you recommend using screws only versus adhesive and screws?
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Old 09-17-2017, 04:11 PM   #15
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You can do a full spread wood glue if you choose to, but it must be a full spread otherwise it can create voids between to 2 layers.
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