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Old 03-14-2018, 03:58 PM   #1
Bribosch
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Shower curb liner screwed (literally)??

Hi! Long time lurker, first time poster here. We are currently finishing our basement, hired a great (licensed and insured) contractor that we worked with before and discussed the shower pan install extensively. A pre-slope was installed on the cement slab, followed by the waterproof liner, followed by the sloped mud. Unbeknownst to us, our drywaller‘s installed the cement board (or is this waterproof drywall???) on the curb today. Not only does the cement install look pretty wacky to me, they also drilled through the pan liner. I texted our contractor when I saw it and he assured us that it will be covered with Kerdi membrane and redguarded if needed before tile. Is this ok??? It doesn’t look right to me... thanks in avance for any help!!
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:22 PM   #2
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Also, sorry, the photo is sideways...
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:38 PM   #3
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If he’s using kerdi or redgard there’s no need to have used the liner. Just pick one system and do it properly. I wouldn’t count on his “hybrid” system to work. The liner is definitely shot from the screws. And that’s assuming he wrapped it up and over the curb, plus used the necessary corner pieces where curb meets walls. Even if he did all that, looks like he used purple drywall. That’ll become a soggy mess once the shower is put in use.

In any case, Kerdi needs to have their proprietary drain, and redgard would need the divot method. And again, it’s part of their respective whole system, they’re not intended as a patchwork solution.
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:43 PM   #4
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This looks like Purple XP Drywall to me. It has a moisture resistant surface similar to that of greenboard. From the manufacturer website:

"XP Gypsum Board is moisture resistant and can be used as a tile backer board in dry areas or areas with limited water exposure such as toilet/sink areas and wall and ceiling areas above tile in tubs and showers."

Clearly not to be used as a backer in shower areas or as a receptor. As mentioned above it will turn to mush.

The penetrations through the liner means the shower receptor is now compromised and needs to be redone. So now the contractor is talking about Kerdi or other direct bonded waterproofing methods? Great then why was a preslope made and a traditional vinyl liner put over that with the utilization of a traditional clamping drain? If that was the plan from the get go there should never have been a preslope nor a vinyl liner installed. Also the correct drain would have been used.

You see direct bonded membrane installations require a specific drain for that application. Kerdi has their own drain with the fleece bonded to the drain so that when you Kerdi the shower receptor the fleece interlocks to create your waterproof connection to the drain. Laticrete has their Hydroban bonding flange drain that has a large surface area and no weep holes designed for use with their membranes. Now there is a technique to use a traditional clamping drain with a liquid direct bonded membrane called the "divot method." This works but requires a very specific installation (one that doesn't use a preslope). And clearly wasn't done here either.

Anyway what is there now has to be removed as it won't work with any of the above methods. Either use a clamping drain and redo the liner and this time make a mud curb so that there are no liner penetrations (and install a cement backer board for the walls) OR install the correct drain and use a matching direct bonded method such as Kerdi with a Kerdi drain. Drywall can be used with Kerdi as a backer but I don't believe any of the other waterproofing systems officially allow for use over drywall (maybe USG membrane but I don't think they officially allow for this).

What is there needs to come out. It can't be fixed.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:16 PM   #5
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He says it’s DensShield. He says the Kerdi will be wrapping the curb and terminating in the pan. He is also willing to do a flood test to check waterproofing. Sigh.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:28 PM   #6
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That looks purple to me and not gray. I am not aware of a purple version of Denshield. Unless the picture color is way off I don't think that is Denshield. But I can be wrong. I don't know the product well enough and the picture color could be off.

Here is a look at a shower with denshield:

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...1&d=1301619896

Do you have any scraps of that material? If so dunk in water for a few days and let me know how it comes out. Anyway there is no way to tie any additional waterproofing into that drain. If the plan was to use Kerdi why didn't he use a Kerdi drain and why did he bother with a preslope? There is no way to properly tie Kerdi to that drain. That drain has weepholes that will allow moisture into the mortar bed no matter what you do on top. Now that moisture will be trapped in a moisture sandwich and the moisture will migrate out to that curb over time and destroy it. You can be assured of that. This shower is turning into a hybrid monstrosity and it should instead be built using one of the approved methods (this isn't one of them).
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:13 PM   #7
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When you waterproof something, all of the various pieces must be tied together all the way to the drain and there's no way to do that with what is there now that the liner is compromised with all of those holes. ANd, they were kind of skimpy with the screws assuming it could have been done!

When using a conventional liner, you CANNOT screw through the liner on the curb, no matter what else you end up doing. You need to build your tileable surface over the curb with metal lath and mortar. The industry standards call for NO fasteners through the liner below 2" ABOVE the curb. They broke a cardinal rule on proper shower building. There isn't an easy fix other than patching the liner and that can't be done with the stuff screwed to the curb.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:26 PM   #8
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Turns out the product on the walls was this stuff: https://nationalgypsum.com/products/...ProductID=2372

Gold Bond eXP Tile Backer.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:48 PM   #9
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If Kerdi is applied to the curb and let's say 6" into the pan (that has a sloped liner into the drain). How is water migrating back to the curb?
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:56 PM   #10
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Hi Bri, if the top mud bed is already installed, then the top grate should also be installed so the tile can be installed around it. Your picture doesn't look to have the grate installed yet. Can you post a pic of the drain as it is now?

If they plan to install Kerdi over the mud bed, there's no way to tie it into the grate. I agree with the others, the installer needs to stick with one method from start to finish, not mix them.
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:05 PM   #11
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Ali, any time you have two membranes, it's possible to have a moisture sandwich. Without the Kerdi actually tying into the drain, moisture will get under the Kerdi (between the two membranes) and not dry out. It might work for a while but it's not an approved way to do it.

There are many different approved methods for waterproofing and tiling a shower. It's usually best to stick with one and not mix them.

Not sure what you mean by "6 inches into the pan".
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:07 PM   #12
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Hi Davy, thanks for your input (and all of you!). Here are pics of drain.The contractor agreed to do a flood test before tiling but how will we know that it’s leaking?
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:26 PM   #13
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Ok, that is the grate and it is slightly higher than the mud so the tile will finish out flush with it. Still, there is no way to tie the Kerdi into the grate. A Kerdi drain should have been used or a Schluter adaptor so that a Kerdi drain can be connected to the 3 piece clamping drain that you have. Like this,
https://www.schluter.com/schluter-us...KERDI_DRAIN-AR

Installing Kerdi right up to the grate won't seal it off. Water will find it's way into the mudbed between the Kerdi and pan liner. It won't leak for a while, may take a long time. But moisture between two membranes is asking for mildew and mold problems. It's just not an approved way of doing it.
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:27 PM   #14
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Angry

I hear you all. Just getting pushback from the contractor who SWEARS it's ok. Of course. Stupid homeowner who doesn't know what she's talking about....

I appreciate everyone's time and input. I will talk to the contractor tomorrow.
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:30 PM   #15
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Welcome, Bri.

Invite your contractor to show you in the plumbing code or ceramic tile installation standards where it is OK to have penetrations in your shower pan liner below a level of two inches above the rough shower curb.
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