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Old 05-02-2014, 07:56 AM   #46
Obie1
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I'm all for using a liquid as long as you do your homework. My first hydroban shower I had my rep walk me through it, no fabric. That was the only one I did like that and like johns aquadefense shower, it haunts me. I've since seen places where the hydroban will separate from itself. Not sure if it's all the way through, but it was enough to scare the crap outta me. That bieng said, I use the fabric always when using hydroban. Don't know if I need it, but it helps me sleep at night.
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Old 05-02-2014, 10:00 AM   #47
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Exactly Obie. A roll of the stuff is less than $20. Why risk it?
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Old 05-02-2014, 10:19 AM   #48
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Because I spent 200 dollars more fore the stuff that doesn't require it.
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Old 05-02-2014, 01:40 PM   #49
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Cain, in all fairness though, the original post is an exception, it's really not that common. Whether the install was done in a place that has a lot of foundation movement or settling, the amount of space the shift created could be outside of what the Hydro Ban is rated for.

In all of my years with the company, this is one of the first problems I've heard of with the Hydro Ban and it's one of our best selling products.
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Old 05-02-2014, 11:33 PM   #50
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If you look through my shower albums you'll see pictures like this one...

I use fabric over the entire pan, and in the corners. I use it in the corners in my niches as well, and up over my curbs (except this one, it was a concrete curb)
I've done this for every shower except my first couple. I hope those don't come back on me, but never know....

Both laticrete and mapei have their fabric in 3'(isn) rolls. One roll will do many shower pans.

It may or may not be necessary, but it makes me feel better.
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Old 05-03-2014, 06:51 AM   #51
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How do you guys apply the fabric?

Meaning, roll on one coat, embed fabric, encapsulate with second coat, then apply the two main Hydroban applications? Which means fabric areas get four coats?

Or embed the fabric as part of the 1st main application, and then just roll on the 2nd main coat?

Either way, does using the fabric allow you to apply all your coats on the same day?
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Old 05-03-2014, 07:00 AM   #52
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Yes, and yes

The first coat of liquid goes on the floor and then the fabric and another coat on top of that, basically as fast as you can get it on. I haven't had too much problem getting waterproofing all on in one day. Course i use AD, haven't had a chance to use HB. Coat the floor one more time before you go home in the evening.

I generally set my floor last, so some evening after setting walls i will coat the floor if it needs it.

And what John says, the big box runs sixty, seventy dollars for ten, dozen pans.
Pretty cheap insurance, IMO.
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Old 05-03-2014, 11:29 AM   #53
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I would be very careful when using fabric on entire pan, its great insurance but cure times are going to extend drastically because you are applying so thick, going thick with these membranes can lead to failure, they are designed to be applied at certain thicknees and cure before more coats are applied.
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Old 05-03-2014, 01:38 PM   #54
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Thanks Jeremy

You are right. I usually do my pans over two days, usually about 4 coats. I give it lots of time to cure between.

When Im in a hurry I pack/float my pan and use kerdi. When Im in a real hurry I do the pan and set the kerdi while its fresh. Works good, just that you cant adjust, so needs extra care when you lay the sheet down.

Ive seen what you mean about too thick. If its applied too thick it cracks in the corners when it dries.
Im looking forward to using hydroban sheet membrane in my pans. Not available in my area yet
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Old 05-03-2014, 02:07 PM   #55
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Here's my method for a basic shower floor:
  1. Install Saraloy liner,
  2. float in drypack, form curb,
  3. fresh-set tile,
  4. grout
  5. Done!

...all done in the same day (about 4-5 hours total), all completely waterproof and impervious to any movement between pan and wall.
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Old 05-03-2014, 09:38 PM   #56
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Dave I know you do it but you forgot to mention preslope and protecting the weepholes in your steps. Unless you use rapid mortar the preslope at least adds 30 minutes and a day of drying time to your schedule. And how long after setting the tile do you grout? Even most rapid sets say wait 2-4 hours before grouting.

Even protected weepholes get clogged in about 4-5 months in a heavy use shower. I've never ripped out a conventional shower that didn't stink. Even when there is a preslope and protected weepholes.

I agree clogged weepholes are better than leaks but I don't think going back to conventional shower pans is the solution to the problem. And I do not agree with Tom that showers properly waterproofed with a liquid membrane are "bottom of the barrel". I put all the pan liners with no preslope and holes screwed into the liner that we have all ripped out in that category.

I have trust in liquid membranes. Worked on plenty of gang showers and commercial kitchens waterproofed in the 90's with Laticrete 9235 that get much heavier use than any residential shower and they still don't leak.

But yes fabric at the floor wall joint is a good idea and should be required.
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Old 05-03-2014, 11:00 PM   #57
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Why couldnt you do the preslope/liner/slope/tile/grout in one day? I could see it being an evaporation issue with a wet mix like concrete, but doesnt deckmud use pretty much all the water for hydration?
Maybe not the grout, risking color issues. Though I did once mud a floor and set the tile and grout the tile all at once as I screeded the mud. Grout color turned out perfect.
(Was just messing around when I did that, small entryway that didnt matter much)

Although I do agree. The weephole thing is what bugs me about a traditional pan. I like surface applied better. Thats just me though, not gonna say one is better than the other.
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Old 05-04-2014, 07:42 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higher Standard Tile
Dave I know you do it but you forgot to mention preslope and protecting the weepholes in your steps. Unless you use rapid mortar the preslope at least adds 30 minutes and a day of drying time to your schedule. And how long after setting the tile do you grout? Even most rapid sets say wait 2-4 hours before grouting.

Even protected weepholes get clogged in about 4-5 months in a heavy use shower. I've never ripped out a conventional shower that didn't stink. Even when there is a preslope and protected weepholes.

I agree clogged weepholes are better than leaks but I don't think going back to conventional shower pans is the solution to the problem. And I do not agree with Tom that showers properly waterproofed with a liquid membrane are "bottom of the barrel". I put all the pan liners with no preslope and holes screwed into the liner that we have all ripped out in that category.

I have trust in liquid membranes. Worked on plenty of gang showers and commercial kitchens waterproofed in the 90's with Laticrete 9235 that get much heavier use than any residential shower and they still don't leak.

But yes fabric at the floor wall joint is a good idea and should be required.
Pre slope takes me about 15 minutes and I use a rich mix (sets up quicker). Once the saraloy is placed, then tacked up the walls, I start dumping the deck mud in. A few well placed pieces of broken tile will keep weeper holes clear.
The only reason instructions on quickset say to wait 2-4 hours is because the tile is still "moveable" for a bit. Not because the grout can't be placed over fresh thinset. Since I'm not stepping or kneeling on the floor, I can reach the entire thing from outside the shower. Once the tile is fresh-bed set, I gently tap the whole floor "into" the mud. This is especially effective when it comes to "pebbles", as I can create a much smoother finished surface. (Larger stones sink deeper into the drypack, rather than sticking up higher than surrounding stones).
Everything cures together as one solid piece (drypack, thinset,grout) instead of having three different "cold joints" trying to bond together.

I know the modern methods are great and all, and they save time (they claim) although that's debatable, when I can do the entire process in half a day, but if the old traditional pans (properly done) have lasted 50,60, 100 years without issue, then why is a new method any better??

The issue arises when traditional pans are done improperly, which in today's standard is probably 75% of the time. Plus none of our "new" tradesmen coming up through the ranks seem to be trained in proper mudwork...hence new methods are designed and utilised. And lets face it...the skill set required to put in a Schluter system or a Wedi system is not near the skill set required to do proper mudwork, let alone fresh-bed setting them.

It's all about personal comfort level. I'm comfortable in mudwork, confident that my pans are done properly and will last a lifetime (haven't had one failure in 33 years) I can do a pan for around $100 material cost, and can have it set in half a day.

If a customer want's a Wedi or Schluter or liquid applied membrane system..no problem, I can do those as well...but be prepared to pay the extra charges in material. A customer wants a completely 100% waterproof shower...I give them that. I'm just more comfortable doing it in the traditional way.

Last edited by Calgary Dave; 05-04-2014 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 05-04-2014, 08:47 AM   #59
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Dave,thats a great system.What about curbless showers...are those "new" as well?Im surprised you failed to mention the preslope in the 1st response,and still no mention of corner pieces!!Which is the #1 reason for panliner failure!!Now Im sucked into this tangent that really has nothin to do with this thread.

Look.Right now we are almost taking the outlook of a consumer.When a person is building a home and is debating on floorcovering and wet areas he/she might talk to neighbors.Lets say Mr/Mrs Blow down the street have a leaky shower (no corner pieces on the curb,lol),floor tiles delaminating,and inconsistent grout color.Well this "consumer" may just go with hardwood,and cultured marble in the wet areas,and completey write off tile as a whole.I see it all the time down here in the armpit.

As all of us know,or should know,showers can be installed leak free (panliner,hot mop,etc etc).Flooring can be installed-bonded properly with expansion.Grout can be installed with higher color consistency.

Pretty simple,right?

OK now that we are getting deep in the rabbit hole with liquid S.A.M. its no different.Just need to make proper adjustments.Same the with the above "scenario".Tile is still a good option and shouldnt be voided because the installer may have been uneducated at the time.Perhaps the installer couldve been one of us,lol.

So let me muscle this steering wheel back 90 degrees where we were going.

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Ive been averaging 30-50 walk in showers since 2010.I predominantly use bucket waterproofing it has been a learning process to say the least.

Just like when you install cpe corner pieces with glue you have to let both areas set up a little before u attach.Without "instructions" it makes sense to do this with liq/fab.You wanna let both transition from wet-dry.I like to let wait till its somewhat dry,but still tacky enough to stick together-marriage.

I think this style can save hours of fab drying time.If u drench both surfaces (which is what needs to happen) and attach immediately then u are simulating a situation like in the bucket.Since it needs air to dry,why not let the air work in your favor a minute or so.

Notice Im not mentioning the no-fab option.It isnt one for me.There are too many variables.Too much risks.
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Old 05-04-2014, 10:42 AM   #60
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Quote:
I agree clogged weepholes are better than leaks but I don't think going back to conventional shower pans is the solution to the problem. And I do not agree with Tom that showers properly waterproofed with a liquid membrane are "bottom of the barrel". I put all the pan liners with no preslope and holes screwed into the liner that we have all ripped out in that category.
Isaac, I don't know if it would be fair think of improperly-installed pan liners into a separate category from proper ones, and then calling that the bottom-of-the-barrel system (you could do the same for liquids). Traditional pans are all one group, one system, correct & incorrect together, and they don't fail as often as liquids (Read post 11 in this thread for an example). For instance on the job this thread is originally about, for a similar attention to detail and care by the installer, a traditional pan system or sheet membrane system would have both been unaffected by that amount of framing movement.
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