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Old 03-05-2012, 12:02 PM   #16
Lazarus
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Given a choice, I'll go with DitraSet or 317. Versabond is fine, but negates the warranty.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:11 PM   #17
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1. George, those are different methods of building a waterprooof shower, and there are quite a few others. Pick the one you like, we'll help you build it.

2. It's more difficult to work with than gypsum board. The membrane manufacturer recommends gypsum board as a backing for his membrane.

3. Don't see an issue at all. She wants no curbs, build showers with no curbs. With direct bonded waterproofing membranes it's a simple thing to do in recessed SOG. Might wanna give her the option of doorless, too.

4. These are differences in technique. Matters not a whit.

5. Previous comments still apply.

Seriously, George, some of these question are simply matters of preference. You ask any three professional tile men, you'll get at least four opinions.

I don't mean to sound rude or dismissing at all, but if you don't want to make any decisions on the construction of these showers, find a pro you think you can trust and just tell him to build you three showers that look like ...... this.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:38 PM   #18
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"Does not matter" is an answer in that it tells me that any of these choices are Ok and we can proceed in whatever way will work best for us. I am driving a new system for this area and we have to go through the usual push back and moaning so I am just making sure that I understand the best approaches before I specify and/or do the job. I am always willing to look at a better way to do things but driving change can be a challenge. The world is still flat, right?

Thanks for the help so far, I am sure that I will be back.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:01 PM   #19
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Kerdi drain ABS vs PVC

What drives the choice of ABS vs PVC Kerdi drain?

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Old 03-06-2012, 01:07 PM   #20
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George, it'll help if you'll keep all your project questions on one thread so folks can see what you're working on and what's been previously asked and answered. We can give it a more generic title any time you'd like.

The type of plumbing to which you need to attach the drain dictates the drain material.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:14 PM   #21
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Thanks. Never seen ABS plastic drain pipe here, its always PVC (I think). Where is ABS used?

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Old 03-06-2012, 01:19 PM   #22
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BTW, how do I change the thread title, can't find the function?
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:20 PM   #23
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Places other than here, George, is all I can tell you.

We get lots of visitors who have all ABS waste plumbing in their houses. I've never tried to map it out by geographic area at all.

You got black pipe, buy an ABS drain; you got white pipe, buy a PVC drain. Is all I know about that there.

You cannot alter your title. Just tell us what you'd like it to be and first moderator who sees it will make the change.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:40 PM   #24
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Thanks on the ABS.

Please change the title of this thread to "Kerdi Showers for new construction"

Thanks,
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:53 PM   #25
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The proper approach seams to be no vapor barrier behind the backer board in a Kerdi system. There is common confusion between vapor or moisture barrier and retarder. Barrier intending to virtually eliminate transmission (6 mil plastic) and retarder intending to slow the transmission of vapor and in some cases, eliminate the passage of liquid water (Tyvek). In this case which one(s) do we mean?

This house is block exterior with the vapor permeable version of fi-foil (micro slits) over the furring strips as insulation for exterior walls. Is it recomended to install the backer board over the fi foil?
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:23 PM   #26
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I am not familiar with your Fi-foil, but they appear to make a great gaggle of products, a number of which say they are vapor barriers. Got no idea which you may have in your walls.

You do not want two vapor barriers, or even very good vapor retarders, closely enclosing any material in your wall structure, even if the material is mostly a Portland cement compound. Just not good practice.

Your Kerdi is a vapor barrier. The 6 mil poly you mention would be a vapor barrier before you poke it full of holes with mechanical fasteners. The backing on your insulation may or may not be a vapor barrier.

Note: The tile industry has recently adopted, or is wanting to adopt (not sure where it stands) the term vapor retarder to mean what has for decades been vapor barrier in the construction industry.

For many, many years it was accepted that any material that had a permeance rating of less than 1.0 (method of testing still arguable) was considered a vapor barrier, even though it would still allow some water vapor to pass. Everything else was considered a vapor retarder. That was the accepted distinction. I will continue to use that distinction here.


You do not need a vapor barrier anywhere in your shower construction unless it is to be a steam shower.

You do need a moisture barrier somewhere in your shower to contain the water. Your Kerdi waterproofing will provide that.

You do not want another serious vapor retarder on the same side of the wall cavity of your shower. In your climate, you really don't want a serious vapor retarder anywhere on the inside of any of your exterior walls, but that's a different argument. You gotta have water containment for the shower area.

If I were in your situation I would ensure that the facing on your insulation was defeated as far as vapor retarding was concerned before I installed my CBU for my shower that was to be covered with Kerdi.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 03-10-2012, 04:15 AM   #27
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Could you clarify what you mean by the vapor retarder being defeated regarding insulation behind the backer board. The fi foil on these exterior walls is fi foil AA2 hi perm (perm rating of 9).

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Old 03-10-2012, 10:03 AM   #28
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Hi George,

You seem to be overthinking some of this. Are you an engineer?

Sorry, Bob.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:26 AM   #29
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I assume that overthinking means it does not matter which is a constructive answer but I need to know which areas you suggest don't matter.

A) Given our block construction style in Florida, the exterior wall insulation subject is an interesting one especially if one intends to waterproof the interior side of the shower walls. There are two main approaches here: rigid foam board or Fi foil. They both are serious vapor retarders at least and in some cases vapor barriers (aluminum faced foam board and the low perm versions of Fi Foil). The only way to really reduce their retarding function is to remove them but then you have virtually no insulation in the wall assembly (the R value of block is around one) which does not meet code and might cause other problems.

B) I understand that plain white drywall is prefered for the Kerdi and most are confident of a foolproof membrane but what about leaks in the wall from the plumbing and/or water intrusion from the outside? Is cement board worthwile to consider for these factors?

C) If cement board, should the surface for Kerdi be the smooth or the rough side? Do you fill and or tape the seams?

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Old 03-11-2012, 09:54 AM   #30
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A. Do you have a framed wall inside the block wall, George? If yes, you insulate the wall cavity but install no vapor retarder on the inside of your insulation. I would treat the block wall as part of the outside environment, much like a rock or brick veneer. Check your local codes and local building practices to see how that's best handled down there.

Again, I would not want a serious vapor retarder on the interior of my exterior wall cavities in your climate, shower walls being the exception.

B. If you consider those factors relevant, you'll need to put CBU on a lot of other walls in your house, too. Up to you.

C. Matters not. You don't wanna fill or tape any joints before the Kerdi is installed. Kerdi is much stronger than mesh tape and the joints will be filled while installing it.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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