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Old 07-05-2017, 05:01 PM   #76
jpinkerton
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Good eye Kevin, that shot by the hardwood the spacing was closer to 3/8 than 1/4 on the left side. I'm finding a lot in this small bathroom that is off, and just 1/8 or even 1/4 makes a huge difference when you're aiming at 1/4. I've used up the extra sheets of plywood thanks to it. Though I've been reading up on some circular saw tricks which should make my next cuts look better.

Looks like my best bet is to order the Noble direct. The shop locally doesn't carry the CIS, but they carry the Ext....which seems of all things you'd carry the reverse.
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Old 07-09-2017, 01:55 PM   #77
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So I finally had a chance to return to this yesterday. I've got everything vacuumed and cut nicely, I like the fit (will have some more precise cutting to trim in around an air vent later) but my question would be about my final screw placements.

I'm going to drive 1 1/4 inch screws through the half inch and into the T&G. I will predrill as usual to avoid jacking. However, I read I should be avoiding the joist area (screws below) but I also have edges screwed on my T&G into the blocking. So with this 2nd layer the closest to the edge I can drive in some areas is 8". This shouldn't be too big of an issue, right? Or should I mark where those other screws are and go between along the edge?
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Old 07-09-2017, 03:25 PM   #78
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Hi John,

I don't have any direct experience using two layers of plywood for the subfloor, so hopefully someone will correct me if I'm off, but I would say:

When using 1-1/4" screws with nominal 1/2" plywood over nominal 3/4" plywood, as long as you don't overdrive the screws too much, the penetration past the 3/4" plywood will be minimal. In which case I would think you wouldn't need to avoid the joists or blocking underneath.

The perimeter of the plywood certainly needs screws, say around 1" from the edge.

Drilling a pilot hole through both layers may reduce jacking but won't eliminate it. [Drilling a clearance hole through the top layer would eliminate jacking, but that's a lot of trouble.] However your body weight standing or kneeling next to the screw location should be enough to avoid jacking.

Cheers, Wayne
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Old 07-09-2017, 03:29 PM   #79
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Thanks Wayne! Unless someone chimes in otherwise tonight I'll mark the edge screw locations and drill between those from the top layer.

I wondered what the joist issue was since I'm not attaching to joists with this layer, but I just assumed it was because of some issue with them being too close leading to other issues.


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Old 07-09-2017, 03:51 PM   #80
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See page 20 of the 2017 Ditra Installation Manual, the details apply to other tile underlayments as well:

https://sccpublic.s3-external-1.amaz...20Handbook.pdf

There's also a liberry article or something similar that the experts often refer people to, but I don't know that link.

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. I would think the recommendation to gap the sheets 1/8" in the second layer of subfloor would only apply to new construction when the building isn't dried in yet, but I'm not 100% sure. The 1/4" perimeter gap applies regardless.
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Old 07-09-2017, 05:17 PM   #81
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Wayne, while I agree that it may not be as important to gap the second layer plywood subfloor sheets when installing them indoors, there is certainly no downside at all in doing so and it's a good habit to develop.

The article you're referencing can be found under Wood Framed Floors in our Liberry, currently at post 11. Has a bit more background information than does the Ditra Installation Handbook.
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:48 PM   #82
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Thanks cx. I trust that your lack of comment on the rest of what I said means it was on target.

Cheers, Wayne
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Old 07-09-2017, 09:43 PM   #83
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Musta been, but you can't always depend upon that, eh?

I favor body drilling the top layer of subflooring if it's thicker than 1/2-inch. I find I can usually prevent any screw jacking in 1/2-inch material by just putting one foot on each side of the screw. Not so with thicker material and even pre-drilling 1/2-inch stuff isn't a bad idea if you are a lightweight such as myownself.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 07-10-2017, 12:06 AM   #84
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This project was my excuse to buy a 2nd drill just so I could make the fastening part easier.

Should've bought Advil with it. Mad props to you all doing this full time. Ran out of screws in the last few rows. Good excuse to call it for the night. Wife being super patient with me drilling in the bathroom that shares a wall with our bedroom at 11PM.

Tomorrow I'll finish screws then shop vac the space.

I figure when I do put the Noble CIS down I should tile over it before doing much else with the walls (Kerdi and tile) to prevent damaging the Noble?
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:37 AM   #85
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"Drilling a clearance hole through the top layer would eliminate jacking, but that's a lot of trouble."

I did clearance holes. Yeah, it's a bit of trouble, but that's why I DIY, so I can do the extra things. Homer has a cheap drill for $21.67. I've got two old corded ones in my toolbox in the garage but I was too lazy to dig one out, along with an extension cord, so I just swapped out bits in my keyless chuck cordless. But I had a small area to do.
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Old 07-10-2017, 04:16 PM   #86
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Well aside from running out of screws and having a drill bit snap on me the top layer is secure.

While I wait for the NobleSeal CIS to show up I'm turning my focus on the studs. There are some out of whack.

I'm no more than 16" OC so I'm good for the 1/2" Kerdi Board. However some of my studs are as much as 1/4" outta whack. Some are only 1/8". Installing 3"x6" beveled tile. Also have a sole plate that's bowed as well.

I was just going to sister some studs to make them more in line and shave the high points on some that hang out over the sole plate at the bottom.

Wife thinks I'm overthinking it and we would never notice with the tile. Am I being crazy?
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Old 07-10-2017, 05:30 PM   #87
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No, you're not. I strive to get the framing as perfect as possible. It makes EVERYTHING that follows so much easier.
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Old 07-11-2017, 07:09 PM   #88
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Thanks Rich! At $4.50/stud from the local lumber yard for them it's an inexpensive fix. However now I'm wanting to remove the remaining drywall and replace the exterior insulation while I'm at it with whatever the best is I can get my hands on. Seems I keep finding things to pull me in different directions.

Got the Noble CIS today but there was a mixup with shipping and I was sent NobleSealant instead of the EXT. Cindy was amazing, called me and EXT is going out tomorrow. Which, between studs and insulation and drywall now...there's plenty to do.

I've not been able to find many CIS install videos, but should I fold the membrane up the Kerdi Board, or bring the Kerdi Board down on top it?

My initial thought after reading the CIS install booklet was membrane, floor tiles, being Kerdi Board down on top of that. Or would it look weird to have the floor tiles run under the wall tiles?
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:52 PM   #89
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Okay, kinda had this whole project on hold during the crazy season with the business. Literally have done zero on this project since the last post. Need to get this done, brother in law will be moving in after the holidays and wife misses having a tub (we just have the shower stall in master bathroom).

So, just so I have my "notes" in one spot I'm going to throw them in here.

First: Going to get the NobleSeal down with the NobleBond EXT and then get the tub set back in place.


Now, I like what I've read on the forums about the DitraSet for the wall tiles, and it looks like you can use it on more than just Kerdi, but it doesn't specifically name NobleSeal...though neither does the Laticrete 317/272.

Could I use DitraSet on the NobleSeal CIS to set the mosaic mesh floor tiles? I don't feel like there'd be a problem since the DitraSet names off most substrates. I was hoping just for ease of ordering I could go with one and liked what I read about the DitraSet.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:32 PM   #90
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John, the Noble Company recommends a modified thinset mortar (minimum ANSI A118.4) over all its membranes. "Recommend" from a manufacturer means required.

I recommend you go to the Noble website and download the installation instructions for the product you intend to use.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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