1st Tile Project--1" Hex Tile Floor--Can Y'all Check My Homework? - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums

tresbebes · 02-16-2003, 09:50 PM

I've been lurking for months, reading posts, checking out the "liberry", and generally trying to gather the info needed to make my first tile project a success. Now that I'm ready to begin, I thought you all could look over the plan, let me know if I'm on track or not, and let me ask a few questions of my own. I'll number the questions I hope to get a reply on--any additional comments on the plan will be appreciated. BTW--you guys rock!

First of all, the plan is for a 1" hex tile floor in a bathroom of a house built in 1918 (affectionately know as the "Mouse House"). The approximate dimensions are about 7' x 8'. The corners are surprisingly fairly square. The entire floor has already been dryfit with the white tile making up the field and the appropriate tiles replaced with black tile to make a contrasting period-style design.

So, first things first. The previous flooring has been torn out to the diagonal planking. New plywood subfloor was laid over that followed by 1/2" CBU laid in a mortar bed to get rid of any voids and to get the floor level. Seams of the CBU were "mudded" with mortar, if that would be an accurate enough term.

1. First question, should the CBU be coated with anything prior to beginning troweling the thinset (like a full skim coat of thinset allowed to dry), or should I just begin troweling on the thinset and laying tile? Should I be doing anything special to the screw heads? I do have a few low spots that I will level with SLC prior to beginning.

2. The tile floor will abut a wood floor that will be the same height as the finished tile floor (I hope, anyway). I have already purchased a transition piece (Schluter "Schiene") to protect the tile edge and make a smooth spacer between the tile and the wood. Am I on track with this one?

3. Lurking taught me to beware too large a trowel notch resulting in getting thinset oozing up all over the tile. I have in my possession a 3/16 x 5/32 V-notch trowel, and I plan to use it, unless you wise tile-o-masters advise me otherwise. What do y'all think?

4. The thinset I have purchased is Mapeii Ker 115, Ultra Flex II, polymer modified one-step mortar (gray, to match the grout later in case I end up with thinset between the tile and not enough room to grout). Is this any good, acceptable, or does it need to be exchanged for something else better recommended for my application?

5. The tile is unglazed, so I plan to seal it all before grouting so the colored grout doesn't stain the white tile. Should I consider sealing the tile before setting in thinset for the same reason? I already have the sealer, but it's at the renovation site right now and I can't remember what it is. I'll post back when I know what it is to see what your opinions of it are.

6. I plan to grout with Mapeii Ker 200, polymer modified cement tile grout. I thought from all my reading here that I should be using unsanded grout on this tile (you know, it comes in 1' x 2' sheets and the spacing appears small). However, the big box guys talked me into buying sanded grout. Is this a wrong choice or will it matter?

The perimeter of the floor has at least 1" of space to allow for expansion and contraction. Since the old woodwork is substantial in thickness (1 3/4") after base shoe installation, there will be plenty to cover the gap. The only places where tile is cut and butted close to anything is in front of the tub/shower combo (tile will be laid close and the resulting gap will be closed with chaulk--actually, the tub edge is slightly higher than the tile, so the tile will lie just next to and under the tub edge) and at the doorway abutting the wood floor (transition piece should take care of this).

I think I've that's it for now. It seems I'm forgetting a few questions, but I'll post here again when it hits me what's missing. Please review and let me know if things look like a go or if I need to back up and rethink anything here.

dswallow · 02-17-2003, 05:51 AM

0) When you filled the gaps between CBU boards with mortar, did you use the fiberglass mesh tape? Or have you used only mortar? The CBU is supposed to be taped with the fiberglass mesh 2"-wide tape then mortared with the same mortar you're going to use for the tile.

1) No, apply the mortar directly. There are some circumstances you might want to pre-wet the CBU while laying down the tile (like with Hardibacker). That's just to give it a bit extra moisture so it doesn't wick it all out of the mortar immediately. Your screws should be level with the top of the CBU, and if not you'll just occasionally hit them while dragging the trowel over them applying the thinset. No big deal, just a pain. If the low spots are minor, you can probably avoid the SLC and just account for them when you apply thinset.

5) I'm not familiar with the factors involving pre-sealing, but I would make sure to ask about what happens if you get the sealer on the tile edges where the grout will go; will it affect the bond? There are grout release products versus sealer products that might be more appropriate (for whatever reason; I only know enough to look/ask, so someone else will have to answer!).

6) Sanded grout in a bathroom floor made up of tiny tiles (well, any tiles in a bathroom, I'd be wary of sanded grout, just for aesthetic reasons and maybe for the well being of my bare feet)? If you have a 1/8" grout line or bigger, you can use it, and maybe it'll be easier to apply than trying to keep an unsanded grout even/level along a large grout line, but I personally would not use a sanded grout in a bathroom like that. I think it'd be a rough feel. If it's a 1/8" or smaller grout line, unsanded is the only way to go; you won't get sanded grout to fill the space easily. Obviously 1/8" exactly can go either way, but for a bathroom unsanded would be my choice, if that wasn't already obvious.

tileguytodd · 02-17-2003, 06:25 AM

Ok as far as sanded or unsanded grout.You can do either.a small grout line and sanded grout involves a bit of technique.if you will have shoe traffic i would go to sanded grout.if not you can use the unsanded.

Mapei ultraflex2 is an excellant thinset.it will not however match your grout. clean your lines as you go!!!keep a sponge and a utility knife handy scrape out the afffected joint and sponge clean with a damp sponge.

tresbebes · 02-17-2003, 08:08 AM

Regarding the CBU joints, they were taped with mesh tape and mudded with mortar. It was the same mortar that the CBU was laid in against the plywood subfloor, however, it was a different mortar than I plan to tile with.

Is this going to be a problem?

How about the trowel size? Is that too small or just right for this job?

John Bridge · 02-17-2003, 11:26 AM

Hello ThreeBabies, Give us a first name, will ya?

The notched trowel is fine. It's what I use for installing small mosaics.

I would not pre-seal the tiles. Set them as they are in thin set.

Unless you are using black grout or a primary color, I would not preseal before grouting. Seal everything after you're finished.

tresbebes · 02-17-2003, 12:21 PM

Well, I feel honored to hear from the revered John Bridges himself!

So, John, in order to address your request:

I was hesitant to post a name, lest you all find out that you are dealing with a (gasp) girl. Anyway, the name is Linda. And the reason that this is my project instead of DH's is because he has absolutely NO patience and the tedious work of these 1" tiles would cause even Bud Cline to hear him cussing clear over in his part of the state. He's the kind of guy that wakes up swearing, just 'cause it's time to get up. He only wanted to install sheet vinyl, but I wanted a period look to this bathroom and insisted on the hex tile set in a pattern. Anyway, he has his own project driving him crazy at the moment--installing frameless kitchen cabinets that require the addition of custom wainscoting skins on cabinet sides that expose end panels with varying profiles of height and depth on each cabinet (I told him he should have come with me to the kitchen designer--he should've spoken up then, now he can only forever hold his peace).

Besides, if any of you read my bio, you'll see that we are the proud parents of 6-yr-old triplets. Also, in my previous life before kids, I spent my time doing research and development in analytical chemistry (translation--anal retentive tendencies) so, who better qualified than an AR mom of triplets to do this job.

The grout is a taupe-y/gray color. I'll take the advice and not do any tile sealing until after grouting.

Thanks for all the input so far!...............................................hesitantly signing in as Linda

tresbebes · 02-17-2003, 12:27 PM

Sorry, I forgot one other question. It seems that there are differing opinions on the sanded grout vs. unsanded. Since I'm admittedly a novice at grouting, am I likely to have trouble using the sanded grout? Is there a lot of technique that I need to be aware of? I'm not opposed to getting unsanded grout--I'm relying on those here with experience using these mosiacs and opinions to let me know what is the "right" one to use for this job.

Thanks!...Linda

Bill Vincent · 02-17-2003, 02:02 PM

Sorry John, TCA and all the ceramic mosaic companies all require 1/4"x1/4" square notched trowel for mosaics. A mastic trowel is said not to leave enough thinset behind. Also, most mosaics are made of a porcelain like material, and therefore will not absorb any sealer, so you'd be doing more harm than good, taking the chance of getting the sealer in the joints, as Doug eluded to.

Scooter · 02-17-2003, 02:04 PM

Sounds like you are on track.

Different thinsets between the taping and the actual tiling won't matter. Your thinset is fine.

Your gap is fine, but I would put something in it. Water has a way of finding gaps like those, and I would hate to see a quart some straming down DH's face one morning. Caulk it.

The trowel size is fine in my opinion. The tile companies do not "require" anything, they suggest trowel sizes, and quarter inch is generally the starting point. I think quarter inch is too large for most 3/16 mosiacs. Do the math. A quarter inch trowel will leave 4/16ths of thinset on the floor; your tile is probably 3/16ths. You will have a oozing mess on your hands if you use a quarter inch trowel, at least in my experience.

You can reduce the amount of thinset (the thickness) by decreasing the angle of the trowel (holding it closer to the floor) which might accomplish your needs with a quarter inch trowel.

My advice is go with your trowel but have a quarter inch handy. If backer buttering the sheets doesn't work, then step up to the quarter inch one.

For those mosiac sheets, I use sanded grout.

I would give the tile a good scrub after the grout has cured then, seal the whole shebang.

Good Luck, Linda.

Cami A · 02-17-2003, 02:28 PM

Don't worry, Linda, you haven't wandered into the men's room.

If you can have triplets, you can tile. Heck, you can do anything!!!

dswallow · 02-17-2003, 02:32 PM

Scooter, a 1/4"x1/4" trowel would, at most, give you 1/8" of thinset between the tile and the floor. Do the math correctly.

Bill Vincent · 02-17-2003, 02:36 PM

Not only that, but if you open any box of AO ceramic mosaics, you'll even find a piece of lliterature REQUIRING a 1/4x1/4, that they won't honor any guarantee where a 3/16 v notch has been used.

Bud Cline · 02-17-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

He's the kind of guy that wakes up swearing, just 'cause it's time to get up.

Apparently we've met???

Whoops...nevermind...I thought there for a minute you were talking about me.

Carry-0n please.

Scooter · 02-18-2003, 09:49 AM

I won't continue to argue the point, except to say that you should start with a trowel, heck any trowel, and start setting tile. Your thinset bag and your tile box will have suggestions as to knotch size. I like to start there, if I am unfamiliar with the product.

If it results in an oozing mess--then stop. Switch to a smaller trowel. You must have no more than about one half to two thirds of tile thickness immersed in thinset.

If it doesn't ooze after setting them, then pull them up anyway and check for coverage. If the sheet is not at least 80% covered (I like to shoot for 100%), then you must either (a) Backbutter those babies or (b) Switch to larger knotch size.

I have the best luck with mosiac sheets using a V Knotch trowel, and backbuttering them. The quarter inch trowel results in way too much thinset in my experience. Not gospel, not TCA, just my experience. I have spent hours on my knees cleaning oozed thinset out grout lines with a Dremel tool as a result of those quarter inch trowels.

John Bridge · 02-18-2003, 03:19 PM

Hi Linda,

To my knowledge, you have the distinction of being the first mother of triplets to contemplate doing tile work with our help, but you are certainly not the first "girl" to do so. In fact, we've become quite used to the idea.

You've caused one heck of a stir with the trowel question, and you will have to sort that out. It's obvious we'll never settle it amongst ourselves.

The only production producer of small hex tiles I know of is Amercan Olean/Daltile, and their tiles are beveled on their edges. For this reason, and the fact that they are set a bit futher apart than tiles of old, I would recommend sanded grout.

The old timey hex tiles were square-edged and set closer, making them a natural for unsanded grout which was often used way back then in the good old days before even my time.

And congratulations on being the mother of triplets (and still finding time to do remodeling projects around the house).