Tiling in Muskego

[peterd]

Well I have been reading quite a bit about tiling and have reviewed
both John's book and Michael Byrne's book and videos. Man I just
hope I am not biting off more than I can chew

My wife an I are building a 2100 sq ft ranch in Muskego, WI
with radiant heat both in the basement and on the main floor.

Main floor construction will be built using
High performance ¾ inch t&g with 11-7/8 pro 130 TGI joists.

On top of the high performance ¾ inch t&g will be 1.25 inches
of Maxxon's Therma-Floor®. Therma-Floor is a gypsum underlayment
designed to pour over hot water tubes.

More info at http://www.maxxon.com/product_detail.asp?ID=4

In all areas receiving tile, Maxxon's plastic net is installed over
the radiant heat tubing. In areas to be tiled Maxxon Overspray
applied before tiling begins to prevent Thema-Floor removing
to much moisture from the thinset.

My deam is to tile the Foyer, Sunroom, Guest Bathroom floor,
and Master Bathroom floor, shower (mud floor with CBU walls),
tubdeck and the common wall that the shower and tub share.

All tiles are porcelain, except for the master bathroom
shower/wall tiles they are ceramic.

Question 1) Am I biting off more than I can chew?

Question 2) How does having the Therma-Floor for a base
affect tile installation?

Thanks
Peter

[tileguytodd]

#1- It all depends on the Time constraints you put on yourself.If you want this done quickly so you can move in,if you have a job you go to daily and are going to do this evenings and weekends, it could take you a long time to complete all this work.Can you do it,yes and we will help you.Can you do it in a couple weekends and evenings.No,mot even if you were experianced.So you need to decide on the Time priority issue.

#2Gypcrete products are not the best base for a tile installation.Gypcrete will deteriorate under moisture conditions.As an example,Americinn uses gypcrete over spancrete for thier units.within 5-6 years repairs become frequent in bathroom and hottub areas particularly.For some reason they refuse to use a membrane over the gypcrete for initial installations even though they continually have problems.
A moisture test should be done on the gypcrete and when it passes,a waterproofing membrane should be used.C-Cures prored, Schluter Ditra with Kerdi band,Bonsal wp-600 are all products that would work.the Best option is the membrane material in combination with an SLC(self leveling cement) if you have the additional room for height.Each membran combined with SLC has differant methods of installation.The biggest advantage is that you will end up with a much harder surface that will be level and flat.Gypcrete in my experiance does not level well.

So, welcome to the Forum Peter and where is Muskego??Anywhere near Hayward?

[John Bridge]

HI Peter, Welcom.

Having lived and worked in the Sunbelt for so long I can't remember anything else, I can't help you on radient floor heat. I do agree with Todd that gyp base products are not the best under a tile installation. I would much prefer to see portland cement/sand mortar.

No matter what is used as a float, the Tile Council of America does recommend that a membrane be used between the substrate and the tile when the installation contains radiant heat tubes or mats.

[peterd]

Reviewing many of the messages on the board many people
use Laticrete 9235 or C-Cure Pro Red 963.

Both appear to work as waterproof membranes as well
as anti-fracture membranes. Since the entire main floor of the
house is Gypcrete based, one of these products will most definitely
have to be used in each of the bathrooms. I would also like to waterproof
the shower walls and shower seat. Maybe even the preslope and the final mud as well.
You know the old belt and suspenders approach.

I will also use one of these products in the other areas of the house that will be tiled.

So knowing that which product is the better choice? Is one easier to apply than another?
Is one better for waterproofing the shower than the other? Is one cheaper than the other?
Can I use thinset with either or do I need something special? How do I choose?
Is there something better?

Thanks (hope I am making sense)

Peter

[tileguytodd]

Well welcome Back Peter.
I use alot of the Prored 963.It is an easy product to use.Laticretes has a fabric used with thiers and may be a bit more difficult to do larger areas.The Prored can be troweled on or rolled on with a paint roller and or Brushed on with a paint brush.Ive ysed it residentially and it has been spec'd on several commercial Jobs.It runs around 100.00 a gallon and comes in a couple sizes of containers for sure 2 gal and 5 gallon.I am not sure if it comes smaller though.You should be able to get a better deal on the 5 gallon unit.perhaps between 350.-400 dollars.
It will do the floors walls benches and even a shower pan if need be.

[flatfloor]

Most finished floor mfrs, carpet, vct, wood, engineered etc. will not guarantee their products over a gypsum material. As one tech. service rep said to me gypsum is food for bacteria.

We constantly preach against gypsum products in a wet environment. A bathroom floor doesn't sound like a good place for it.

I'm curious, how much per SF are you paying for the gypcrete, how much for plastic mesh and how much for the overspray. Can you get the contractor to break these figures down?

What kind of warranty are you getting from the gyp installer?

BTW the SLCs Todd refers to (and I agree with him) are Portland cement based.

[John Bridge]

Peter,

Ditra, while not the cheapest, is spec'd out for gyp. It is applied with a modified thin set -- no other glues are needed.

[peterd]

Flatfloor,

As far as I am aware their is only one radiant heat floor
intstaller in south eastern wisconsin and the product they
use in Therma-Floor from Maxxon corporation. I suspect
that is why Maxxon corp wants a waterproof/anti-fracture
membrane installed where ever tile will be installed.

I am paying about $2.00 per sq ft completely installed.

I am not sure what other choice I have since since
my wife and I really want radiant heat in our new house.

Any ideas?

John, would I use Ditra just in the bathroom where water is present and use the C-cure roll on membrane every where
else where H2O is not present?


Thanks
Peter

[peterd]

When the Terma-Floor is poured an "expandable metal lathe" is
installed in all areas designated to receive ceramic tile.

-Peter

[tileguytodd]

If you Go with Ditra,Use it throughout.It is a good product and well worth the investment.Cost will be similar to the other choices.labor will be a bit more but you gain several advantages with the Ditra.Besides being a waterproofing membrane it is an uncoupling membrane.I would give it serious consideration.

[peterd]

Tileguy, John ........

When I build the mud shower do I put Ditra down and then
build the preslope on top of the Ditra? Won't it move?

Do I snap chalk lines for tile directly onto the Ditra?

When you say Ditra throughout do you mean where ever I
am tiling right?

Do you think I need to lay a waterproof membrane under all of the other floor coverings I will be using? I have engineered wood floor in the great room and dinning room and kitchen. Carpeting in the three bedrooms. And vinyl sheet flooring in the laundry room. I can see the laundry room as as issue since water is present in a big way there. What about the kitchen with dishwasher?

I know the engineered wood flooring people are putting down a 1/8" membrane of sorts. It's suppose to take out any imperfections in the floor, but I don't think it is water proof. The wood floors will be floating wood floors.

At that point might it be worth rolling on C-Cure Pro-Red 963
in all areas not receiving tile?

I have a friend that one said to me "If you can't find time to do it right, when are you going to find time to do it over?"


I also want to thank all of you that are responding to my questions. I thank God for you. I hate to think of the possible tragedy I was setting myself up for.


Thanks


Peter

[tileguytodd]

Ok Peter,i see we are confusing you a little and i understand what its like to be overwhelmed so i'll try to clear some things up for you ok.
Your shower is a seperate issue all together so we will handle that later.first, we will deal with all your ceramic tile flooring with the exception if the shower.OK?
#1 A gypsum floor is really not acceptible for putting tile on.A membrane is called for to install your tile on the gypcrete due to#1 radiant heat and #2 gypcretes know problems with moisture deteriorating it and causing your bond to fail.This is where the Ditra comes in.It is a plastic type matting with dovetailed recesses in the matt.This gets installed over your gypcrete with Thinset morter and then your tile gets installed over the top of it.This effectively uncouples the Tile installation from the gypcrete and protects the entire installation from moisture deteriorating your bond.Ditra is manufactured by schluter corp. for more infornation on this product go to www.schluter.com.there is also a link at the top of the page.
#2 Your Shower.This area we know is going to recieve alot of moisture and not only does it need to be contained, it also needs to be controlled.This is why we use a Preslope/membrane/finish slope with a clamping drainAny moisture that goes through your tile installation and works its way down to the liner is checked.it the rolls towards the drain due to the preslope where it finds its way into the drain by way of weep holes.weep holes are designed into the clamping drain just for this instance.it keeps moisture from just sitting under your application causing mold and mildew and all kind s of other nasty things to ruin your shower.The Prored 963 is a roll on waterproofing membrane or Surface applied membrane.it has a place and can be used for roll in handicap showers etc. where a curb is not used to contain water.Please read more on shower construction in the library.there are several other articles in there you should also read.then come back with any additional questions .we are here to help you and your education,however, you need to help also OK

[peterd]

Tileguy,

I had previously read all of those articles. I have bought and read John’s book as well as Michael Byrnes book and videos. The gypcrete floor causes the complication with everything I am doing.

I do understand the purpose of Schluter Ditra everywhere I am laying tile. I could also use C-Cure ProRed 963. However, you and John think Ditra although it has more labor involved in installing it, is better suited for this project. Wisdom wins again.

But the question I was trying to ask with the mud shower is this. The entire bathroom as well as the entire main floor of the house has gypcrete (1.5 inches thick) poured over a ¾ inch plywood subfloor. The anatomy of a normal (if that exists) shower pan would have ¾ inch plywood with mud preslope, 15-lb tar paper over it with metal lathe stapled to the plywood subfloor. Then pour the deck mud over the lathe.

The question I have (come on peter get to the point) is what do I put over the gypcrete in mud shower? I could put 15-lb tar paper but would I be better of using C-Cure or Ditra?
Remember there are radiant heat tubes running throughout the bathroom and shower area.
If I use any of the above what do I attach the metal lathe to? If I staple it I will puncture
the C-Cure or Ditra or tar paper and the idea I though in my case is make sure no water ever reaches the gypcrete.

I also figured once the CBU’s are up and the final mortar bed for the shower floor is complete I could use C-Cure ProRed on the walls as well as the floors and seat to make extra sure no water ever penetrates and makes it to the gypcrete floor.

I am very sorry for being long winded; I just don’t want to screw anything up. The time for asking questions is now, not when I am in the middle of construction.

Thanks for your understanding.

Peter

[tileguytodd]

OK ,i am following your concerns(sometimes i am a bit slow,but i can still outrun John i bet )

I would use the Ditra up to the point where your shower curb will be.
Run your preslope in the shower area using sandmix.you do not need to attach the lathe to the subfloor.once you have done your preslope,the gypcrete will be mute because you will put a standard PVC liner over this.followed by your CBU then your final slope to the drain.The prored can be used for any bench area etc.you are going to build a curb,correct?You will need to have your curb 2x4's in before doing your pan.I realize you dont want to nail through the gypcrete so i would Attach your 2x4's for the curb to your framing with some construction adhesive on the sides and underneath alng with nails into your wall framing(or screws if this is easier).Then follow Johns method for doing the pan/curb etc.

[peterd]

Tileguy,

Yes I am planning on having a curb. I figure I would nail down
some 2x4's before the gypcrete is pored and nail them down to
the plywood subfloor. Just like all of the interior walls will be nailed to the plywood subfloor prior to the gypecrete pour.

Only trick is that everything (interior and exterior walls) will have to have and extra plate (2x4) to account for the 1.5 inches of gypecrete.

Do I have to worry abount the moisture in the preslope that will come in direct contact with the gypcrete ?

-Peter