Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-02-2018, 05:49 PM   #1
jhc7399
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Oxford, Ohio
Posts: 6
Hearth Tile major failure....

THE END result...

I bought an A frame about a year ago for a nice price but pretty much everything needs updated and remodeled. In November I decided to start the hearth so I could install a nice pellet stove since heating and A frame is really tough.

A couple of friends of mine offered help and said they knew what they were doing. I am not bashing them at all but we aparently did something wrong. I have tiled a bathroom floor that turned out very well and lasted over ten years with no issues.

As you can see it turned out pretty good. So about a month and a half after the tile was done I started on the fireplace facing and noticed some cracking in the grout. I stood on the hearth to do some nailing and it pretty much fell apart on me.

Once it warms up in a month or so I plan to pull the stove and start completely over.

I used the basic Home Depot sanded grout and the Home Depot basic mortar.

Check out the pics below and any help would be very much appriciated. I am a novice at tile so lamens terms helps, haha.

Thank You
Attached Images
     
__________________
Jeff

Last edited by jhc7399; 02-02-2018 at 06:07 PM.
jhc7399 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-02-2018, 06:02 PM   #2
wwhitney
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 951
Did you try to adhere tile directly to dimensional lumber?

Cheers, Wayne
__________________
Wayne
wwhitney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2018, 06:05 PM   #3
jhc7399
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Oxford, Ohio
Posts: 6
So looking up "dimensional lumber" yes we did, lol.

Plywood is only 11/32 which I am reading on here is no where close to what I need. And we did not use any backer board...

I am guessing a lot was done wrong here and any advice you can give me will not hurt my feelings and only help when I get my plan of attack for the next round.
__________________
Jeff

Last edited by jhc7399; 02-02-2018 at 06:10 PM.
jhc7399 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2018, 06:24 PM   #4
Obo2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Nevada
Posts: 87
I'm guessing basic home depot thinset is unmodified as well?

I'd rip off the 3/8th plywood, build it up to 1.25" install an uncoupling membrane or backerboard with the correct modified thinset to adhere to plywood and then tile on top as recommended by whatever underlayment you used.
__________________
Nick
I probably have no idea what I am talking about.
Obo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2018, 06:30 PM   #5
jhc7399
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Oxford, Ohio
Posts: 6
So plywood(How thick), mortar modified to stick to plywood, backerboard, nortar then tile?

What about the face, on the 2x6?
__________________
Jeff
jhc7399 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2018, 06:46 PM   #6
Obo2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Nevada
Posts: 87
the plywood thickness is dependent on the type of underlayment. I believe Ditra and Hardibacker want a minimum of 3/4 over 16" oc joists, doubling it up certainly wouldn't hurt anything. I don't think any thinset would adhere well to the 2x so facing that with ply and underlayment would be good too.
__________________
Nick
I probably have no idea what I am talking about.
Obo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2018, 01:00 PM   #7
rmckee84
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 2,438
Nick has you on the right track. Anytime someone wants to install directly to plywood, which I wouldn't reccomend, you should always use a premium thinset. That plywood probably sucked every bit of moisture out of the thinset before it ever had a chance to think about making a bond to your tile.

And like you said your subfloor was nowhere near adequate. A layer of 3/4" tounge and groove would suffice. Followed by your choice of underlayment.
__________________
Jack of most trades, master of none...
Ryan McKee
McKee Construction & Custom Tile
rmckee84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2018, 04:01 PM   #8
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 12,181
IF those tile are natural stone, industry guidelines call for TWO layers of plywood. The first should be a minimum of 5/8" (3/4" is better) and the second at least 3/8" (and finding 3/8" that is not all warped in the proper grade is really hard, so 1/2" usually works out better - thicker won't hurt).

Then, while you could tile directly to the plywood with the proper thinset, you probably wouldn't want to for this application. Since you want to tile the front as well, you'd need to cap it with ply as well.

Because you have the potential of a significant thermal gradient right in front of the stove, you might want to consider something like Ditra for the underlayment, but a cbu probably would work...that needs to be 1/4" unless you have a reason to raise the floor height by using 1/2".

How hot does it get on the tile in front of the stove? If it doesn't get all that hot, you might just rebuild the whole thing with KerdiBoard.
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2018, 09:27 PM   #9
jhc7399
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Oxford, Ohio
Posts: 6
Thank you for all of the advice guys.

They are not stone, ceramic/porcelain tile will be used.

So what I am getting is to tear it down to the pic I attached, build up to 1.25" with plywood, use backerboard, modified mortar then tile?

Do I need to do the same thing on the face and sides or can I leave the 11/32 on and go over with backer board since it is not going to be directly weight bearing?

Also is there a special modified mortar? Lowes says all of their mortar is modified (polymer enriched) like in the link.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/MAPEI-Ceram...Mortar/3743807
Attached Images
 
__________________
Jeff
jhc7399 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2018, 10:00 PM   #10
rmckee84
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 2,438
If it was me, tear it down to the framing, put down 3/4" Tounge and groove, then thinset and underlayment. 1.25" is mainly a thickness guideline for natural stone or if you were to install directly onto the ply.

Face and sides of the elevated area?

For under the CBU just about anything will do. But for on top I would opt for something of a little more quality. I havent bought Mapei in awhile so I cant remember what their decent thinset is.
__________________
Jack of most trades, master of none...
Ryan McKee
McKee Construction & Custom Tile
rmckee84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2018, 04:59 PM   #11
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 12,181
If you want to tile directly to the plywood, I think you'll find you need a modified mortar that meets ANSI A118.15 specs. Anything above .1 is a modified, but they are not all created equal. If you use something like cbu underneath and on top of the ply, you can get by with a lower spec product. FWIW, most cbu doesn't not need modified underneath the cbu, an unmodified will work fine since the screws are what is holding it in place. Depending on the amount of localized heating, the higher grade modified might provide a little more margin of error. For this small project, you'd probably only need one bag, so personally, I'd spring for one meeting A118.15 (it should state that on the bag, maybe in the fine print, but definitely in the spec sheet).
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 10:09 PM   #12
jhc7399
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Oxford, Ohio
Posts: 6
rmckee84, do you mean by tounge and groove, hardwood flooring, the stuff you buy unfinished in bundles? Or plywood tounge and groove?

So that as a base on top of the frame, mortar, concrete board, ANSI A118.15 mortar then the tile?

By "Face and sides of the elevated area" I mean the verticle areas. I should not need to go as heavy there as on the top because the frame is carrying all of the weight, correct?

I have no issue with spending what ever money this needs to get it right for the last time.

Thanks again for all of the info guys!
__________________
Jeff
jhc7399 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 10:27 AM   #13
rmckee84
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 2,438
1. Plywood
2. Yes
3. I don't know that it matters too much what thickness is used on the sides, you may be able to get by with just screwing CBU to the sides and face.
__________________
Jack of most trades, master of none...
Ryan McKee
McKee Construction & Custom Tile

Last edited by rmckee84; 02-20-2018 at 02:30 PM.
rmckee84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 01:14 PM   #14
jhc7399
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Oxford, Ohio
Posts: 6
Fantastic, thanks for your help.

I will get this done as soon as it warms up enough to pull the stove.

I will post pics.
__________________
Jeff
jhc7399 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 05:33 PM   #15
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 12,181
It looks like your hearth is small enough so you can cover it in one piece, so T&G probably isn't an issue. You're better off having ply on the vertical sides, but you may get by with cbu on the dimensional lumber. Keep in mind that the lumber you buy at the yard, while technically dry, isn't fully dried out, and will shrink some...plywood is more stable, and tile likes stable.
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Enlarging fireplace hearth and tiling hearth and surround Kate1569 Tile Forum/Advice Board 65 12-31-2016 08:40 AM
Major Tile Project jUNIOR73 Tile Forum/Advice Board 5 01-17-2013 04:21 AM
Major epoxy grout failure ( exterior, heated ) Shanachie Professionals' Hangout 19 10-17-2008 05:25 PM
1st major tile project Moscow Tile Forum/Advice Board 3 03-11-2008 02:28 PM
major (as in, MAJOR) grout mess - please advise kavita Tile Forum/Advice Board 37 04-29-2007 09:54 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:43 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2014 John Bridge & Associates, LLC