In floor Heating

[Bri]

I had an interesting day today...2 bathroom floors...2 different kinds of in floor heating. The first one was hot water through platic tubing, that was placed in a groove in a 5/8th inch thick hardboard that was covered in a shiney reflective foil. The manufacturer suggested going directly over the shiney foil surface with thinset. I thought this was trouble in the making, and asked for another alternative. They said "wire lath and mud", for which I said "yeah right"..how do you screw or staple or whatever the wire lath down, with out puncturing the plastic tubing? So yes I opted for Ditra..it worked out well.
Now the second bathroom is electric cables on a concrete floor...I've done these before, and used self leveling on top to cover the cable...but this floor is pretty rough and needs some leveling...maybe an inch....Does anybody else have experience with this type of heating? Should I fix the floor first so that the cable in close to the surface?..or can the cables be under an inch of mud and still heat the tile floor?...I just answered my own question, didn't I ?

Brian

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[chip]

Your killing me with all these uses of Ditra, man.

You need to call my good friend Joe Vaccarella with Cosella Dorkin. They are in Beamsville, Ontario. They are making Ditra for North America. Phone # 800-465-1668.

They are just off the Q.E.W. south of Hamilton approximately 40-50 km. Is km the right abbreviation for killometer? And does any body know why abbreviation is such a long word?

Any way Joe is a great guy, and would be more than happy to talk with you and if you are looking for another material to install that is similar to Ditra, but used as a moisture barrier for foundation walls, he would no doubt be very happy to talk with you.

Regards,

Art

[Bri]

Thanks Art

Have you been down the 401 through Toronto Lately?...it's absolutely nuts! It's the busiest highway in North America...that a fact...anyway...thanks for the ditra tip...maybe Joe can tell me where I can get the stuff at a price more people can afford. Home Depot sells it, but the price is..well...stupid!

Brian

[John Bridge]

Bri,

The guy who used to moderate the do-it-yourself board (before you took over), Rich Gately, is in Buffalo, N.Y. I know he's done a bunch of in-floor heating (tile work). Shoot him an email.

tilesetter@hotmail.com

As you know, we don't deal with it down here. Anybody got any ideas about in-floor cooling?

[Bud Cline]

Bri,

I'd be curious to hear what you may have to say in any follow-ups on your in floor heating journey.

I have thought of taking on a line here but know nothing about the stuff. At one point I attempted to communicate with a few manufacturers but all I got was stock answers.

I asked four of them for printed info and have received nothing, absolutely nothing. But it's only been about five months. Some email responses did insist I had to attend their schools and that's fine. If they are no more aggressive in their sales and promtion techniques I can't imagine what they would do if someone had a problem with their product.

Question. Re: "wire lath", why couldn't you have just held it in place with the mud? Why would it have to be mechanically fastened in this application?

Question. Would you expect the mud or thinset to bond to this shiny foil material you mention? Or, does it need to? I would think it would.

Question. This time for FLATFLOOR. How 'bout it Jim, what happens when you surround (pour) this heating apparatus with SLC? Is expansion/contraction an issue?

I wouldn't think an inch of any topping would have much effect on the heating ability of the heating product. May slow things a little when first turning the system on.

[Bri]

Hey Bud

I asked the same questions... the lath idea was never an option since the board holding the tubing was already 5/8 thick, so adding an inch of mud would take the bathroom floor an inch or more above the hallway hardwood floor. Just using the thin set over the shiney foil surface,seemed like trouble,even with the best thinset..since the tubing board was in small sections with lots of joints(lot's of possible areas to crack), so I thought the Ditra, being a crack isolation membrane, would be the safest way to go. I will keep you posted.

Brian

[Bud Cline]

Bri,


So.............what did you do ahead of the DITRA? I must be missing something here.

The heating components are/were surface mounted when you got there??????


I just re-read your comments, are you saying the tubing was nested in between pieces of hardboard. The top of the tubing is the same as the top of the hardboard? And......all this is simply installed ONTO the existing subfloor?

Who's system is this do you know?

[chip]

What is hard board? Hard wood? Pressed wood?

What about the indentations that the silver reflective stuff, you were afraid to try to stick thin set to. did you put some hard board over it?

[Bri]

Bud ..Art

It was like a dense particle board, with groves routered out where the tubing was placed.The top of the tubing and the board were flush. The board was screwed down to the subfloor. I used Tec Superflex to adhere the Ditra to the foil surface. My thinking is that the flexible Ditra will hold up better to heat changes than the ridged tile on the shiney surface. I'll find out the maunufacturer tomorrow.

[Bud Cline]

I wonder if the Superflex will bond to the foil.

Not too long ago I tiled a home made hot tub made of steel plate. Epoxy was the only thing that anyone would even come close to recommending to adhere to the steel. I talked to techs from every major supplier.

[Bri]

Hey Bud
I've used planicrete W to stick tile to metal access doors and it was designed to stick to steel....and yes..I had to throw my trowels away..I tried grinding them clean with no success. .....Mapei by the way.

Brian

Oh yeah...the superflex stuck to the foil really well....lets see what happens when they put on the heat!

[flatfloor]

Where to start?

Ok, the easy one first, Bud, no we have not experienced any problems with expansion and contraction. Like you , we have had limited success in getting responses from the radiant mfrs., particularly the electrical systems, I cannot honestly say how 1" of slc would affect the heating capabilities of cable.

As far as using a mesh and slc with that system I don't see why attaching the mesh should be a problem, the mesh should be fastened every 6", what's the spacing between the tubes? Using the mesh, you don't have to worry about bonding to the foil, there is a mechanical bond. What I would worry about is the spaces between the boards the tubes are imbedded in-leakage of the slc to a floor below, if that is a concern it may just be too much work to caulk between the boards.

Using a 2.5 diamond lath mesh and covering the mesh with an slc will add 3/8" to the floor elevation, plus the height of the heating system if it is laid on top of the mesh.

Hope I didn't wander.:)

[John Bridge]

Well, I know what "hardboard" is. It's masonite. But I'm going to blow my cover now -- I'm expected to know most everything. I don't know what "slc" means.

And Jim, Gotta bring you up to date on Mt. Houston. Drove by there today, and there's a huge sign out by the road saying . . . are you ready? It says "fill dirt for sale." I mean, can you believe the audacity of these jerks?

[Rob Z]

Bri

It sounds like the stuff you had is called WARMBOARD. Contact Dave Ashton (he's on the member list). He had a huge job over this stuff. I don't remember all the details, but I think he eded up with Hardiboard over the WARMBOARD.

Entitle your email "free Guinness" so that he will open it. Tell him I said "HI".

Rob Zschoche

[LDavis]

Okay John I'll bite. SLC, Self Leveling Compound. Not like the mudbed you level yourself, but one of those expensive bags you buy, mix with water, and pour on the floor. Seeks its own level, according to manufacturer.

[Bud Cline]

John,

SLC: "Self Leveling Cement",
"Self Leveling Compound".

Art:

LOL: "Laughing Out Loud".
LMAO: "Laughing My Ass Off".

NOW! "What the hell is Mt. Houston really"?

[Bri]

Yeah Right...Like I'd give away Guinness!

Just to let you know...the Ditra is holding fast on the heated floor...no problems yet, and I don't expect any. What can I say?...the stuff works...now if they'd only lower the price a little....

By the way...got the new Schluter Illustrated Price list Today, along with 2 installation CD's. Hope I learn something.

Brian

[flatfloor]

Sorry about that John, on some of the other boards self leveling cement is being referred to as slc, please note no caps., and no I didn't start it.

LD, none of them are 100% self leveling, you do have to push them around some, but with a little practice you can get damn close.

John, I think it's high time you got the local, state and feds into this. EPA, DEC, Bureau of Mines, maybe the Bureau of Irish affairs, a little known but powerful agency intent on preserving Irish history and artifacts in The west. As you may or may not know an Irish Monk, St. Brendan, is the first European to actually set foot in America. He is believed to have landed in present day Galveston and trekked inland as far as Mt Houston where he set up camp, built a small fort manned by one monk, and returned to Ireland since he felt Texas to be of little use what with all that black goo oozing out of the ground.

[Bud Cline]

Jim were the the hell did you get that nonsense? It was Jed Clampett that did all that before he discovered California I thought.

[John Bridge]

Of course! I knew that (after you said it). Gracias.

[Rob Z]

Brian

I didn't mean to suggest that you would actually GIVE Guinness away. Just mentioning Guinness will cause Dave to perk right up.

What is Ditra selling for up there? I don't find it to be expensive. Maybe someone is messing up the US/Canadian exchange rate at Schluter.

I just had a brilliant idea! I send you affordable Ditra and you send authentic Canadian Molson! My Canadian friends tell me that the stuff sold here in the US is swill compared to the genuine article. Whaddya think?

Rob

[flatfloor]

This topic is deteriorating, but who cares? it's fun! TGIF Yanks vs Mets tonight, maybe Piazza's bat will slip out of his hand aaaand Clemmins is down!

Bud, I don't believe for one minute Jed Clampett discovered Ca., it was Ne. and he's still there in Hastings.

[Bri]

Hi Rob
Well...I don't drink the "original" either...I'm not into carbonated alcohol(you can stick tile down with guinness)...I;m drinking this new stuff called Steam Whistle Pilsner.. http://www.steamwhistle.ca It's great!

Ditra? I can get it for about $1.35 a sq ft Canadian...so around a buck US....so yeah..not to bad..just a little more than CBU.

Brian

[John Bridge]

Well, I checked out the Steam Whistle site, and as usual it appears you Cannucks are keeping all the good stuff up there and shipping the swill to this country. SW sounds like a great brew -- no rice, none of that stuff.

The price of the Ditra seems about right, considering the exchange. And you probably make up the the cost over CBU with decreased labor, eh?

[Bud Cline]

flatfloor,

I know the thing about Jed Clampett must be true because it was on television. I also remember it being in the National Inquirer so it must be true.

[Rob Z]

Hi Brian

I Checked out the website. I would love to get some, but when i tried the search feature for a local source everything went nuts on the computer. 50 liter kegs of the stuff? Oh, baby!

Even though the Ditra is a little more, I think it's well worth it just on ease of installation alone. I'd rather take a beating than put down 100's of square feet of cbu on a floor.

Fun fact for beer lovers on the Forum: The Zschoche family (originally spelled Zschokke) came to the US from the Czech city of Pilsen. It's no wonder I love the stuff.

Rob

[flatfloor]

Damn, the Enquirer is not to be doubted, if it's in there it must be so. Mets lost.

[John Bridge]

Rob,

When you changed the spelling of your name, why didn't you lose a few of those surplus consonents?

[chip]

As you know I'm a little touchy when it comes to last names. All I want to know is how do you pronounce your last name Rob?

[Bri]

Hi
I spent the morning trying to attach this stuff to a concrete floor...it wasn't too bad...Here's what it is...anybody use this before?

http://www.easyheat.com

Brian

[John Bridge]

I get a kick out of the lady reclining on the tile floor with a book and a bowl of fruit. It's as if the "Warm tile" system will also make the tiles softer.

[Rob Z]

Art

It is pronounced "Shock-ee".