Product Testing and Standards

[Dave Gobis]

Sorry about the caps, don't know how to change it back.
PRODUCT TESTING AND STANDARDS

THE 67 REGULAR AND ASSOCIATE MEMBERS OF THE TILE COUNCIL OF AMERICA FEEL THAT EDUCATION AND COMMUNICATION ARE CRITICAL COMPONENTS OF OUR INDUSTRY.

THERE IS SOME MISSUNDERSTANDING IN OUR INDUSTRY AS TO WHAT THE PRODUCT STANDARDS ARE AND HOW THEY RELATE TO THE MANUFACTURING AND USE OF CERAMIC TILE.

THE CURRENT PRODUCT STANDARDS FOR CERAMIC TILE ARE SET BY AND PROMULGATED BY ANSI- THE AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARDS INSTITUTE OF WHICH THE TCA IS A MEMBER AND SECRETARIAT. THERE ARE NUMEROUS ADDITIONAL ORGANIZATIONS REPRESENTED ON THIS COMMITTEE. IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT TCA ITSELF DOES NOT SET THE STANDARDS BUT ACTS ONLY AS THE SECRATRIAT AND FAICLIATOR OF THE MEETINGS REQUIRED TO FACILIATE THE DOCUMENT. THE STANDARDS FOR CERAMIC TILE PRODUCT WERE LAST SET IN 1988 AND PUBLISHED AS ANSI A137.1. THESE STANDARDS DEFINE CERAMIC TILE AND SET THE PROPERTIES FOR THEIR PRODUCTION PARAMETERS.

CURRENTLY MOST TESTING IS PERFORMED USING ASTM METHODS TO THE ANSI 1988 SPECIFICATIONS. HOWEVER, FOR THE PAST 10 YEARS, MEMBERS OF THE WORLDWIDE TILE COMMUNITY HAVE BEN DEVELOPING THE ISO 10545 SPECIFICATIONS FOR CERAMIC TILE. THESES SPECIFICATIONS HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED AND PROMULGATED BUT ARE NOT COMING INTO USE AT THIS TIME.
THE STANDARD WHICH HAS NOT BEEN APPROVED AND PENDING IS THE STANDARD FOR COEFFICIENT OF FRICTION (COF).

IN THE MEANTIME, ANSI AND ASTM COMMITTEES ARE MEETING TO DISCUSS THE INTEGRATION OF ISO STANDARDS INTO THEIR PUBLICATIONS AND METHODS. THE NEW ISO STANDARDS FOR CERAMIC TILE ARE TIGHTER, IN GENERAL THAN THE OLD STANDARDS, IN PART DUE TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF NEWER PRODUCTION TECHNOLOGIES.

WITH ALL THIS SAID, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR YOU? IF YOU USE, SPECIFY, SELL PRODUCE, INSTALL, DESIGN WITH OR ARE OTHERWISE ASSOCIATED WITH TILE, THIS COULD BE VERY IMPORTANT.

WHEN EVERYTHING GOES SMOOTHLY, THE TILE GOES DOWN WITH NO LIPPAGE AND STAYS DOWN FOR YEARS WITH NO FAILURE; YOU DON’T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THESE SPECIFICATIONS. BUT WHEN THERE IS A FAILURE, THE COSTS CAN BE SIGNIFICANT.

MOST MANUFACTURERS HAVE THEIR OWN TEST LABS AND DO TEST THEIR OWN TILE. SHOULD YOU? MAYBE, IF THE JOB IS QUITE LARGE, IF YOU DON’T KNOW THE SUPPLIER, IF THERE IS A SPECIAL APPLICATION OR OTHER REASONS, MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE TILE TESTED.

TESTS CAN EITHER BE SPECIFIC TO ONE PARAMETR, FOR EXAMPLE COEFFICIENT OF FRICTION OR CAN TEST ALL 16 DEFINED PARAMETERS (THIS MAY BE A GOOD IDEA, BUT CAN BE EXPENSIVE). TESTS CAN ALSO BE SELECTED TO DEFINE IF A PRODUCT IS SUITABLE FOR A GIVEN USE, SUCH AS COF, WATER ABSORPTION AND BREAK STRENGTH FOR FLOOR TILE.

THERE AREA NUMBER OF INDEPENDANT TEST LABS IN THE UNITED STATES (AND AROUND THE WORLD). THE TCA HAS ONE WHICH IS UNIQUE IN SEVERAL WAYS INCLUDING THE FACT THAT IT IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH A MANUFACTURER, SPECIALLIZES IN CERAMIC TILE AND HAS ALL MAJOR TEST EQUIPMENT USED IN ASTM AND ISO METHODS.

[Sponsored Links]

[chip]

My new version of the ANSI hand book is at least 3 times as thick as the 1988 version.

Can we assume that this is due to the consolidation of the ISO standards?

TO EVERYONE OUT THERE,

How many times do contractors take the time to test the products that they are installing prior to the actual installation? My guess is probably not enough. Let alone have an independant firm do this testing for them.

Who could afford that? How many stories are there of contractors getting stuck with out getting paid untill things can be worked out between the manufacturers and suppliers? Do they get ever get all that is due? Interest?

Is there a perfect solution to all these concerns? No! Can we as a team start addressing our concerns and find ways to make this industry as strong as it is proud? You bet!!

The best way I know is to subscribe to the methods and standards of the industry, quit trying to re-invent the wheel. The methods prescribed by the TCA, CTEF, NTCA & ANSI are not meant to be a detrement, but quite the contrary. They are there to make each and every one of us successfull everyday.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about is the varying opinions on how to put cement backer board on a floor. The method that I have tried to explain has been in the TCA hand book since 1995. In my former territory of Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Western New York and now in South Florida, 99.9% of the contractors I have talked with didn't know that the reccomendation was for dry set mortar under there board. How much money could have been saved using this specification alone? How much of your money?

Bottom line, let those who will help you , help you.

Thank you,

Art Phenis



[Edited by flatile on 06-12-2001 at 08:04 AM]

[John Bridge]

Thanks again, Dave, for the clear and concise explanation.

And Art,

Shove your soapbox back under the table for a while, will ya?

[kalford]

Art,
I agree that the TCA is there to help however,the top three backerboard manufacturers give instructions to "bond,adhere,laminate", THEIR product to the floor.USG,Hardibacker and Permabase.
If I follow TCA's recommendations the manufacture will not warrant the product because I didn't follow THEIR instructions.Is TCA gonna stand behing the product warranty in their stead? I don't think so.

It sounds like the manufacturers testing labs and TCA's testing labs need to get together.

I can't afford to foot the bill for a failure because I didn't follow manufacturer instructions.

[Rob Z]

Hi Keith

One thing to keep in mind is that, except for Custom's Wonderboard, the only warranty coverage you can expect to get is for the cost of the board itself. (Custom will warranty the entire installation if you use all their products in approved fashion-cbu, thinset, grout)

For all the sales pitches we hear about products and warranties, it's all BFD as far as I am concerned. Offering to replace the cost of the least expensive item in an installation does not impress me.

Another thing to consider is that of the various people I have talked to over the years who have had experience examining failed installations, they all have the same thing to say: They can count on one hand the number of installations that failed due to the materials failing to perform as designed. Almost always, the failure is directly attributable to one or more steps that were omitted of performed incorrectly.

It gives me some confidence in these statements that they have come from people that are widely separated in the industry, and presumably are not able to orchestrate a campaign of misinformation.

As for my experience, I have been setting tile for 11 years. I haven't had a single installation failure, not even a single cracked tile. I think is due to following the instructions closely.

I did have a failure of self levelling compound a couple years ago. The day after I poured it, the SLC cracked all over the place. I followed directions to the letter, and later found out that there was a bad batch of product. I submitted a request for reimbursement of material costs and labor ("Even though that's not warranteed, Rob, we'll cover it"). I ended up mudding the floor, which is what I should have done in the first place.

So much for the "unofficial" warranties. I'm still waiting for the MFR to send my reimbursement check.

I'm not holding my breath.

Rob

[John Bridge]

Another disparity. One of the backer manufacturers (which one?) has come out with the idea of NOT taping the seams in floor applications. I wonder what the idea behind that is.

And Rob, I agree that the product warranty isn't worth much when the product is burried under a couple other products that don't come under the warranty.

This question of whether to bond or not to bond just won't go away, though, will it?

Rob, you know a bunch of product techs. Can you get somebody over here to explain the thinking on the bonding side? I think we all know the TCA reasoning to not bond.

[kalford]

Sounds like a good idea then we can look at this thing more objectively.
Believe it or not I do understand the basic principle behind TCA's "no bond" technic.I'm just not sure I agree with it................of course if I DID, this would have been a shorter conversation and I would have been forced to listen to my wife talk endlessly about nothing.lol

Keith Alford
"I'm all ears"

[Bud Cline]

Another: "For What It's Worth".

I have dabbled in tile (and stone) for most of the twenty-fives years I've been in contracting, It wasn't until eight years ago that I began to do nothing but flooring 99.5%. Ninety-five percent of that is clay or stone products. I am happy to report in all those years, even before I knew of any kind of standards, I have also never had a failure. Oh sure some cracked grout, and some seperating grout from structural movement in a wall, but never a real failure of any kind.

I have never installed tile over p/board or OSB, been asked to several times but never have. I have always used the thinset dejour to set the CBU's, I have always taped the joints using fiberglas tape and thinset dejour. I have always used a little common sense too. I can ill-afford to eat any job because of being lazy or greedy.

I have never purchased the cheapest products to work with and when they (cheapies) are included with an order from a retailer I ask for a better quality to be substituted and they usually won't argue. The few times they have argued I was able to reason with the customer and get my way afterall.

[Edited by Bud Cline on 06-12-2001 at 04:24 PM]

[Bri]

Concrete board has been around a long time...and every few years they come up with another variation on how to install the stuff..and I'm sure it will change again...but I think we can agree that it's up to the installer to make sure whatever product he/she uses is installed over a substrate that is suitable. Have you seen that post "structure" over at Infotile? Someone is having problems with cbu/tile installation..the installer put the cbu over carpet! Good Grief!

Brian

[chip]

I'm sorry for staying up on that darned old soap box for so long!! Has any one ever seen a soap box that could hold a fat old sales rep. for long? I haven't.

Rob,

Read the warranty that you are talking about. Then tell me how excited you are.

Art

[Rob Z]

Which warranty are you talking about?

Rob

[Bud Cline]

Art,

Is your soapbox tiled? If not why not?

[John Bridge]

Yeah, the soapbox. Does the framing meet specs, i.e., 16 in. o.c.? How about the span? The substrate? And most important, what about the "live load"?

[chip]

Rob,
Wonder board.

Bud,
Used cement board too.

John,
Dead load is the concern when I'm on it.

[Dave Gobis]

On the bond/no bond subject about CBU's, the handbook says follow manufacturer instructions. The TCA methods are instructions for the basic product meeting an ANSI A118 standard in leiu of propreitary instructions. TCA does not make any recommendations to the contrary. Manufacturer instructions always supercedes TCA. TCA is a GUIDELINE. I do agree with Art, my preference is dryset. Can anyone tell me which one recommends countersunk stainless steel washers when you share a stud with two panels?

[Rob Z]

Now that I have re-read the fine print on Custom's warranty info, I'm not sure what you think the problem is.

Rob

[John Bridge]

I'm going to be damned embarrassed if no one can come up with an answer here. Well, don't look at ME!

[Bri]

I don't know...but I'll bet it's a company that manufactures stainless steel screws and washers....and while we're on the topic...anything countersunk in a cbu doesn't hold worth a ....poop! It eventually pulls through. At least that's what I've noticed.

Brian

[Dave Gobis]

It is in their written instructions on page 3.

[Bri]

I'll guess Wonderboard, since when it first came out they had a washer attached to the screws they used to send along with the board.

[chip]

I'll say James Hardie co.

Rob,

I thought I responded, sorry.

It sure is a lot of hoops to jump through.
Must use milk with thinset under it.
Who pays to determine l/360?
No guarantee on what they will replace, their discretion.

If people buy products based on these types of warranties, then maybe we need to give it another look.

[Edited by flatile on 06-13-2001 at 09:41 PM]

[Rob Z]

Art

It's pretty clear in the warranty info: they replace/repair the failed section of the system. If it's one tile or an entire field of tile.

Nothing is said that requires or obligates the homeowner to pay for L/360 testing.

Rob

[chip]

Under Warranty Requirements

Wood subfloor
1. framing- bla bla bla, bla bla, bla bla, bla bla BLAM, the deflection or movement of the floor cannot exceed l/360 of the span under the intended live and dead loads (weight).

Who will have to substantiate that it meets over l/360?

[Rob Z]

Art

Custom lists the requirements, of which there are many, including framing dimensions, spans, etc. They don't state that it is up to the homeowner to prove anything other than what they have listed. If there is a failure, investigation will reveal whether the various steps were followed. It's really a stretch to think that a reputable company like Custom will respond with "Sorry, L/360 has not been met. We know this just by standing here and looking at it. Claim denied."

If this is the case, then Fin Pan's offer to replace or refund any "product that proves defective due to manufacturing" may only be good after the user has substantiated that the stuff is defective.

With all this being said, I buy Utilicrete (by the pallet) over all other brands because I think it's a better product. The warranty (or lack of one) doesn't sway me at all. If I have a job go bad, it's going to suck no matter what a warranty says.

Rob

[chip]

Exactly, that is why we have decided not to play that game.

You use our products and we are going to stand behind you.

If it's a product failure, hey we have whole bunch of humans working for us and mistakes happen.

But are we going to promise you the world to sell you something, Our distributors don't want it and aren't going to promote it, we don't want the hassles. Your right you are using the best product available. Your distributor goes through a lot of board for us and has promoted the very thing that I have been promoting since I came on this forum.
TCA's recomendation for installing backer board, and they have no failures.

Keep coming at me, we are after the same thing.

Good night,

Art Phenis

[Rob Z]

Art

This is turning into the Rob and Art show. We need to shut up and let the others go at it for awhile.

I'll save your last post as my "Unofficial Warranty" from Utilicrete, courtesy of Art Phenis, should I ever need it.

rob