Tile-Redi or Schluter-Kerdi? [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

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rkersh409
04-13-2011, 08:34 AM
First like to say great site, loads of information. I am replacing a corner shower that has leaked. I have to replace studs and floor due to rot. So itís a must for the new system to be 100% waterproof. I am not even thinking about a mud bed. So my options are Tile-Redi pan or the Schluter-Kerdi shower system. I am as green as you can get when it comes to tile. So I have a few questions about both.
1. With the Tile-Redi pan I was going to put the cement plywood on the walls. On Tile-Redi's video they do not show any type of waterproof cloth over the cement board. Do you need to put something like Kerdi over cement plywood? If not what do you use to seal the seams?
2. With the Schluter-Kerdi system I am kind of leery of the Styrofoam being easily damaged. Not knowing anything about it will I have to worry about it cracking the tile down the road?
3. If I decide to go with Kerdi on the walls can tile be placed directly to the fabric?
Thanks for any help you may give!
Robert

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bbcamp
04-13-2011, 08:46 AM
1) What Tile-Redi says in their written instructions is to install backerboard and waterproof the walls in accordance national standards. That could be Kerdi or a roll-on waterproofer. The connection detail is important as you recognized. Both methods have ways to do this, so you need to decide on the method you intend to use. Keep in mind that the Tile-Redi pan needs epoxy to set the tiles. You would use Kerdi-fix to bond the Kerdi to it, though.

2) No. Once the tile is installed, the floor is as stable as a mud floor. You do have to worry about damage during construction, so most folks wait until the walls are up and covered with Kerdi before setting the tray.

3) Yes.

gratefuldawg
04-13-2011, 09:23 AM
As a DIY'er who bought the tile ready pan then went to the kerdi I would highly recommend the kerdi. This site has all the info you need. Consider buying the kerdi book. I did use the kerdi tray on mine and my 2 pieces of advice on the tray is;

1 maked sure your floor is very flat, those pans are pretty flat and if your floor is not it could cause an issue.

2 don't use a power saw to cut the tray, don't even ask how I know this!

rkersh409
04-13-2011, 06:04 PM
I have made up my mind to dump the tile redi pan and go with a Schluter-Kerdi system. I was reading Johns post and (please correct me if I'm wrong) he said to use sheetrock since its cheaper and will be covered with Kerdi anyway.

I want to install a corner bench in the shower and saw something in this liberry where you can make it out of wood. But do I install the wood over the Styrofoam pan or do I just cut the corner off of the pan?

Also a newbie question, which thinset do I need to install the Kerdi over the sheetrock and is this the same thinset to lay the tile?

Thanks,
Robert

jgleason
04-13-2011, 06:26 PM
Hi Robert,

I merged your latest question back into your original thread. We like to keep to "one project, one thread", makes it easier to see what has already been asked/answered. Bookmark the thread and you can find it no matter how long between posting. :D

You would frame the bench covering it with plywood and then drywall. Set the pan, cutting off to fit around the bench.

Thinset - use DitraSet, Laticrete 317, Mapei Kerabond or any other premium quality unmodified thinset.

rkersh409
04-13-2011, 06:40 PM
My bathroom is 8' x 12' with 2 x 6 joist running the 8' way every 16" with 3/4" plywood on top. Will I need to add another 3/4" piece of plywood over the shower (3' x 4') if I plan on using the Schluter-Kerdi pan to keep from the tile/grout cracking?

Thanks,
Robert

jgleason
04-13-2011, 07:18 PM
Robert,
Please keep your questions on one thread please. If you continue to post each question as a new thread it really makes it difficult for others to see what is going on with your project.

dhagin
04-13-2011, 07:22 PM
Will I need to add another 3/4" piece of plywood over the shower (3' x 4')

No. BUT, what is the maximum unsupported span of your floor joists? Look under the bathroom for walls or beams that the joists are bearing onto. :)

rkersh409
04-13-2011, 07:35 PM
Sorry Joe, I posted the other thread before I seen you combined them.

The joist are unsupported for 8' but the 4 x 4's are supported every 6' that the 2 x 6's tie into.

dhagin
04-13-2011, 08:09 PM
With an 8' unsupported span, you'll be fine. Maybe...

So you have a 4x4 "beam" under the 2x6 joists that is supporting them? And this beam is supported every 6'?

Anything else being supported by this 4x4 beam? :)

rkersh409
04-13-2011, 08:29 PM
Yes Dana you are correct. The 4x4's are holding up the 8' 2x6's, and the 4x4's are supported every 6'. Nothing else is being suppered on one side (exterior wall). The other supports the bedroom. When I take up the floor I can add another 4x4 just under the shower portion.

Thanks again Dana and Joe for the help!

dhagin
04-13-2011, 08:56 PM
Do you have an exterior wall being supported by this same 4x4 beam? Or is the 4x4 within a foundation and is only supporting the ends of your 8' long 2x6 joists?

Still just trying to understand what you have on the 4x4... :)

rkersh409
04-14-2011, 05:33 AM
On the exterior wall there are two 4x6's (sorry not 4x4's) on top of each other and is being supported every 6'. On the interior wall is the same. Then the 2x6's toe nail into the top 4x6.

dhagin
04-14-2011, 08:28 PM
I think we're getting close (er) ... So, lets see if I've got it all.

1-At one end of these 8' long 2x6 joists, is an exterior wall above the 3/4 plywood. Supporting this exterior wall and one end of your joists is (2) 4x6 beams stacked one atop the other. The (2) 4x6 beams are supported every 6'.

2-The other end of the 8' long 2x6 joists is an interior wall. The wall and joist ends are supported by (2) 4x6 beams stacked one atop the other, like at the exterior.

This a one 1 or 2-story house? How still does the floor "feel"? If you walk across the floor do the walls shake?

rkersh409
04-14-2011, 08:46 PM
You got it Dana and its a one story built in the 30's or 40's. The walls don't shake. We have little shelves on the walls and stuff does not fall off. But if you jump up and down stuff on the floor vibrates a little. Or the washing machine (on the other side of the other wall) will shake stuff in the bathroom, but not bad at all.

Thanks for the help!
Robert

dhagin
04-14-2011, 10:00 PM
well then. :)

With an 8' unsupported span, you'll be fine.

rkersh409
04-16-2011, 05:53 PM
I am going with Daltile Salerno in 12 x 12 for the walls. I have been looking on-line to see what the actual size of the tiles are with no luck? Does anyone know what the actual size are and what size grout line?

Also I cannot find if they are porcelain or ceramic?

When laying out the tile to start how do you figure out where to start the first tile?

Also has anyone ever used Grout Once tile guy recommended it .

Thanks,
Robert

WendyHMN
04-17-2011, 06:40 AM
You weren't looking very hard. :) This download from the Salerno page on Dal's website has the info you need.

96872

I ordered a sample when we were planning our shower. I've had the French Quarter stuff in my kitchen for years and loved it. I thought the Salerno was quite flat with more a picture of stone pattern on it. It looks almost like suede, which wasn't what I was going for, but may be just your ticket. Make sure to look at a real tile since the pictures don't give a full impression.

rkersh409
04-17-2011, 11:34 AM
Thanks Wendy I liked all over daltile website and didn't see it. That's just what I was looking for!

rkersh409
04-19-2011, 03:32 PM
I have a knee wall that will be the same width as the kerdi. And I did not want to take the tile all the way to the edge of the wall. Can you tape and float over the kerdi up to the edge of the tile?

dhagin
04-19-2011, 04:30 PM
I don't think it's a good idea to use drywall mud over Kerdi. If this area is outside the shower, cut the Kerdi at the edge of the tile and finish as you suggest. :)

rkersh409
04-22-2011, 07:36 AM
Thanks Dana you have been a big help. But as usual I have another question. My shower is 48" x 36" so I ordered 12" x 12" tile. When I picked it up I found out that it was really 11 3/4". Question is will a 3/16" gap work for the walls and just space the rest of the difference in the corners?

Thanks,
Robert

cx
04-22-2011, 07:50 AM
You can use any grout joint width that suits your eye, Robert.

My opinion; worth price charged.

jondon
04-22-2011, 07:53 AM
Robert,

Yes usually when they say a 12" tile it is normally less than that for the spacing. With your shower dimensions being as they are, is your shower square. I ask because if you are that close on the tile going into the corners as full pieces it would have to be almost perfect for that to work. When the two tiles go into the corner and meet, you do want a lil gap for the grout to go into but not too much. 1/8" is good but no more. You may have to draw some lines and see what is going to work, you might have to jump up to 1/4" for spacing to make it work, again I know you want full pieces.

I see you ordered them already, if this does not work for you the 12" tiles, ask if you can get 13" then you could use 3/16" or less and not to have to worry whether they will work. For the 12" if they don't stretch far enuf into the corner you can always halve the corners, so on the 48" wall you would have 3 full tiles and two halves if need be;)

rkersh409
04-24-2011, 07:18 PM
I am wanting to put in a corner bench and was wondering if anyone has used the Kerdi Bench? How do you attach it to the sheetrock before you put Kerdi over it?

Also I was looking at my tile (Daltile Salerno) and noticed every tile 12" and 2" tiles had a small white border all the way around. Is this normal? I don't think the grout will cover it up because its on the flat area of the tile.

rkersh409
04-26-2011, 05:40 AM
My bullnose does not have the pattern all the way around the edge. How can I hide this edge if I am going to use it inside my niche?

97521

Here is a pic of the white border around my tile.

97522

Thanks,
Robert

rkersh409
05-30-2011, 04:20 PM
Finally got a free weekend to start my shower project. This is what I got done before running out of Kerdi (due to making shower bigger and adding a bench). Let me know if I have done something wrong please.

100099

Thanks,
Robert

dhagin
05-30-2011, 09:38 PM
Looks good Robert. You got your 2" overlaps everywhere? Nice and flat? Seams tight? :)

rkersh409
06-05-2011, 07:18 PM
Could someone recommend a good sealer (big box stores if possible)? How long do I need to wait after installing the tile before I can grout? Also how long does grout need to dry before putting on the sealer? I have talked to a few guys and some say to seal the ceramic tile and grout. Others say not to get the sealer on the tile. Which is the correct way?

Thanks,
Robert

dhagin
06-05-2011, 08:03 PM
Hi Robert,

Please keep all your questions about this project in this thread so folks can see what you're working on and what's been previously asked & answered. Thanks.

Could someone recommend a good sealer (big box stores if possible)?

HD has Miracle Sealant 511, which is good for grout, stone, pretty much anything that needs sealing.

How long do I need to wait after installing the tile before I can grout?

Depends on specific mortar, temp, humidity, etc... but usually 24 hrs at 70F & 50% RH is long enough. What do the mortar specs say?

Also how long does grout need to dry before putting on the sealer?

Depends on the specific sealer and grout, which often disagree. What do the sealer and grout specs say? Typically, 3 days at 70F & 50% RH is long enough.

I have talked to a few guys and some say to seal the ceramic tile and grout. Others say not to get the sealer on the tile. Which is the correct way?

Glazed ceramic or porcelain don't typically need to be sealed as they're not porous and won't absorb it anyway. Cementous grout, though, is porous and a sealer will help with stain resistance and cleaning. :)

rkersh409
06-26-2011, 12:23 PM
Hopefully just a couple more questions. Do I need to silicone the corners then grout or grout then silicon?

Also what does every one use to apply the sealer? I have seen some use the foam paint brushes and just dab it on the grout. I have also seen a little bottle with a roller on the tip, but don't know where to find them.

Thanks,
Robert

dhagin
06-26-2011, 05:56 PM
Do I need to silicone the corners then grout or grout then silicon?

I typically grout first, then after the grout sets up a bit cut it out of the corners with a trowel. The next day I silicone the changes of plane. Depending on how big the gaps are, you may need backer rod behind the caulking.

Also what does every one use to apply the sealer? I have seen some use the foam paint brushes and just dab it on the grout. I have also seen a little bottle with a roller on the tip, but don't know where to find them.

What do the sealer installation instruction say? For 12x12's I'll usually paint the joints with a paint brush. For 2x2's on the floor, I'll usually use a cotton terry towel to wipe the whole floor with sealer and buff it off the tiles with clean towels. You can buy grouting and sealing tools from the TYW Store. Link at bottom of page. :)

Houston Remodeler
06-26-2011, 07:49 PM
What Dana said plus,

instead of a $$ paint brush, we use a disposable chip brush

rkersh409
06-26-2011, 08:30 PM
What is a chip brush?

Houston Remodeler
06-26-2011, 08:36 PM
chip brush (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100626098/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053).

We buy them by the 10 pack to use with a number of things. For sealing, a narrower one will get you by if you want to save 15 cents.

rkersh409
06-26-2011, 08:54 PM
Thanks for the help.

When I was putting up the tile I would only mix up a drywall mudd pan of thin set at a time. How long would I have to use it before it was too dry? I took a scrap piece of plywood and thin set three pieces of kerdi and some scrap tile as a test. A week later two was kind of tiff to peel off but the third the tile came off. But it pulled the fleese off but the kerdi was still on the plywood. This was thin set that was left over and had been setting out for about 30 minutes. Does it sound like I will be okay?

Thanks,
Robert

dhagin
06-26-2011, 09:07 PM
You don't need to buy anything special for sealing grout. Chip brush, paint brush, foam brush, cotton terry towel, whatever you already have as long as it's clean & compatible with the sealer. If you use a better brush, just clean it when your done. ;)

Your test means little, as the tile will never ever be peeling off of anything. In a shear test, that's straight down if your setting wall tiles, Kerdi must pass a 50 psi test. That's 50 pounds for every square inch of coverage. So, if your tile weighed 50# each and you only had 1 square inch of mortar coverage, you'd still be OK. Not to worry. :nod:

rkersh409
07-09-2011, 09:37 PM
I used Miracle 511 to seal the grout in my shower and let it dry for 3 days (per instructions). After taking the first shower I noticed some places in the grout that was darker. After a few hours it was back to normal color. Is this normal or do I need to add a second coat of sealent?

Houston Remodeler
07-09-2011, 09:53 PM
The nice part about 511 is you can add more (to a limit) as the new stuff melts the old stuff and helps the new stuff penetrate any missed spots. 2 coats would be my maximum unless you have super thirsty grout.