Shower pan: hydroment over plywood?

[bcesa]

My contractor is installing a 48" by 60" shower in my new addition. The new framing is 2x10 floor joists, with a 3/4" plywood subfloor. Deflection appears to be acceptable.

Based on what I discussed with him today, and saw of his work, he has arranged scrap wood around the drain, over which he has nailed a 4x5 foot piece of plywood, using the scrap wood (pieces of cedar shingles) beneath the plywood to create the requisite 1/4" over 1' slope. The plywood seems to flex a little when walked on, and it is somewhat uneven, although all slope is toward the drain. The plywood is secured to the floor with a good number of nails.

Over this he proposes to apply hydroment ultra-set, as the pan. When this cures he will install the tile (1x1" tile on 1 sq ft sheets) over the hydroment ultraset compound.

This seems somewhat inconsistent with the extensive reading I have done in this forum and the liberry. I am concerned that the floor will flex, leading to cracks in my grout, and that the nail heads in the plywood will rise up and poke through the hydroment layer, creating leaks. Also, there is no mortar layer for continuous drainage.

Q: Should I stop him now and insist that a "mud man" be brought into the job, before any (expensive) tile is installed? Or has his proposed method of installation been successful in other applications? This forum seems stronly directed toward the mortar approach, but I cannot find posts that tell me that my contractors proposed approach is trouble waiting to happen.

Q: How does one go about finding a competent "mud man" here in central New Jersey? Tile store recommendations?

Thank you for any and all help. This forum is tremendous! I can't believe what I have learned in two days!

Bill :eek:

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[stullis]

Doesn't sound like a job I would want done in my house! :eek:

You best stop him from doing more damage.

I believe there are a couple of members on this board that could maybe refer you to someone who is competent.

[tileguytodd]

Bill, at first look i would be scared.however ,i want to check a couple of spec sheets before i take a stand here.Hold tight ok :)

[bcesa]

Tikeguytodd,

Thank you for looking into this further. Contractor showdowns are never pleasant.

Bill

[tileguytodd]

Ultraset is designed to be used as a surface applied membrane ,trowelable,it should be applied to a thickness of 30 mils over properly prepared concrete or plywood.They state to not use plywood in wet area's.The material is bridgeable to 1/8" and needs a fiberglass mesh to be used in these area's.This is a good product and very similar to several other manufacturers.
I disagree with the method being used here however.The best way to use this material is as a surface applied membrane and this is how it is spec'd.It should in a shower be applied over a properly sloped mudbed.Would i use this as a membrane,Yes,just not in the method you have described above.
I would insist on a proper preslope,Pan final slope shower or a properly constructed surface applied membrane construction.If this tileman is incapable of building a proper shower pan, i would find a real tileman and have it done properly or, we can walk you through it and you can complete the installation yourself.Surface applied membranes are really specialty type membranes that have no place in basic shower pan installations.they are expensive and require more time than a regular pan to install.generally i use them for handicap type roll in showers and occassionally on on grade slab showers where the slope is buil into the foundation.
I wish you well, thanks for bringing this to my attention.I wanted to look over the spec sheet on the particular product to refresh my memory on its characteristics :)

[bcesa]

Yes, the specification for the ultraset is impressive, but the flexing that is possible in the nailed plywood preslope, and the potential for nails to rise up after repeated flex has me concerned. I will ask him to remove the plywood preslope and start from scratch with a mortar bed. Because the plywood is nailed and also probably glued, my contractor is going to holler, but, oh well! But the ultraset was not appied yet, so it could be worse.

[bcesa]

News update and a few more questions. The contractor has removed the plywood base, and I saw him pouring mortar, which is closer to the way John B recommends. But it looked like he was pouring it directly on the plywood subfloor. Will this be a problem if the pan is properly applied above the base mortar?

For the pan he has indicated that he will apply the hydroment ultraset sealer over the preslope mortar that he is apparently pouring now, to about 6 inches along the wall.

How long should the mortar dry before he applies the ultraset?

Thank you.

[John Bridge]

Hi Bill,

I think you still have a problem here, and I think you should determine how the contractor is going to complete the job all the way through. I think you should do this before things get really out of hand. I don't think the fella has a clue as to how to build a tile shower.

I wouldn't be using Ultraset at all. I would be installing either a pvc or cpe membrane over an approved pre-slope of mortar. An option on the pre-slope would be one of the foam products approved for that use -- Pro Form, for example.

The membrane would be clamped into an approved drain, and then the pan would be tested for leaks.

What I'm saying is, the shower would be built in the usual manner, and it's apparent your guy isn't aware of usual procedures. ;)

[flatfloor]

This contractor, is he a sub to the GC or is he the GC?

[bcesa]

John, and flatfloor,

Thank you for the feedback. I printed out the Michael Byrne article on pans and gave it to him this morning. I think he might have glanced at it, and it is not here now that I have arrived back home from work so hopefully it is his homework tonite!....

tileguytodd appears to believe that the ultraset is OK, I saw it has an incredible spec, and will install over mortar, and I don't think the GC is going to use PVC because he was complaining that he didn't think he could find a piece that big (floor of shower is 45" x 60"). But I see your point about the drain tie-in. If he insists on the ultraset can he make it work?

flatfloor, the contractor is my general contractor. He is principally a carpenter, hence the plywood solution, I am sure. I am demolishing 2 bathrooms (circa 1965), expanding the house a bit, and constructing 3 bathrooms in the old plus new space. The master bath is the only custom pan (the other shower is preformed bottom, and the other bathroom has a tub). In a job like this, who typically installs the mortar pan? The plumber? Because, as I indicated, the subcontractor plumber is the one who recommended the ultraset to my GC, and I am sure my GC told him he planned to put it over the plywood.

The GC has indicated that he has installed 12 of the plywood/ultraset pans and some are over 10 years old and none have leaked, including the two in his house. That's what he says, anyway! But that's not enough of a track record for me! Should I bring in a mud man? Where do I find such folk in NJ? Yeller pages?

Bottom line is: the plywood is gone, it looks like he has a good preslope mortar bed, and will likely be installing the pan (ultraset or maybe PVC if he has a change of heart) tomorrow while I am out of town. Any recommendations on what directions I should leave for him? Be polite now! I could insist on the PVC, but I have already severely antagonized him today, and I don't want to continue the trend unless you all feel it is absolutely necessary, since he still has half the job to go. From what I get out of his comments, after the pan he will float another inch or so of mortar and install the tile.

Thank you again for all your help!

[tileguytodd]

I believe he can make this work if he treats it as a PVC liner.In other words trowel it up down and around everything and into the drain itself.then after it had dried apply the clamping assembly.Keep in mind that 30 mils is the minimum thickness and i believe 40 mils would be better.He will then need to do his final slope.This is a workable scenario for the product.A PVC or CPE Liner is considered the best approach,but i will say that i have done architecturally sped'd showers not much differant than what we are talking about here.differant product,but same principal behind it.The curb would need to be built and the membrane troweled completly up and over this and running it up the jamb a few inches wouldnt hurt either.Its a rather expensive way to go,but i see no problems with it not performing as advertised.

[bcesa]

tileguytodd,

Thanks again for your feedback. Your comment this morning led me to garner the strength to confront the GC, and insist that he remove the plywood pre-slope. Is it OK that he poured the mortar pre-slope directly over the plywood subfloor? Or do I need to make him rip it out again? Good thing I am a fast runner, I might live through this...

[John Bridge]

I'm afraid I'm sticking to my guns. I don't have faith in that to begin with, and I particularly don't have any faith in someone who doesn't have a clue. Sorry.

PVC comes in special order widths up to 8 or 10 feet, or you can seam two narrower pieces with cement they sell at Home Depot.

[bcesa]

John,

OK, I'm am going to try to "convince" him install PVC for the pan!

If he read the M. Byrne article I gave him he might actually do it correctly. Good thing I get to see his work each night.

I am still curious, who typically installs the mortar pan and tile in a job like mine (dining room extension, and reconstruction of 2 bathrooms and addition of a third bathroom). The plumber? A specialty person (what kind of trade would I be looking for?) A tiler?

All the other aspects of his work seem to be fine, but he really scared me on his approach to the shower pan.

Many thanks, again.

[Sonnie Layne]

agreed with JB.

Todd has a leg up, I've never used that method. I guess at one point there were guys saying "that plastic liner ain't gonna work... no way!!! " I'm willing to accept change, I gotta see it.

Todd's a good reference to these issues, but I'm quite comfortable with the ease, expense and security of the currently approved practices. Can his method be quoted paragraph and line in a document sanctioned by a recognized authority? I don't know.... that was a question.

If it's not sanctioned, he won't have a leg to stand on if it fails. And it'd be a bad thing if it were your leg that was stuck in the hole.

[bcesa]

Sonnie Layne,

I was wondering how to deal with conflicting advice. Thanks for your guidance. Who does this "sanctioning" that you talk about? Do you really mean accepted practice, or are we talking about building codes or ANSI standards? Or ???

Everyone seems to be avoiding my question about what trade usually builds the shower pan. Maybe this question arises mostly from my ignorance, or maybe I am asking folks to breach forum protocol. I can't tell. Since my CG has built and rebuilt many many bathrooms in his 20 year stretch, I assumed he was up to the task. Was I ever delusional! Should I have expected the plumber to do it, or a tiler, or this task typically falls to the GC? (when the GC is competent, and mine was clueless).

[Sonnie Layne]

Bill,

There are ANSI standards, there are TCA (tile council of america) standards, I"m sure there are half dozen standards that could be read into your job. It wasn't my intention to muddy the waters, but to let you know there are folks out there who have written the book. I have not personally taken a look a Custom Brand's Hydroment performance sheet to know whether or not the manufacturer would stand behind this installation or not. As I said, Todd is a guy who has used it and knows it. I have not and know not. Knowing the dramatics of manufacturers disclaimers, I'd say they've got their derriere covered for the type of application your GC is contemplating.

Don't mean it won't work. Heck, some nail mfg's. say if I don't drive 'em in at 15 degrees, their product is misused... you know what I mean.

Still there are standards. Sorry, I'm not one of the big kahuna's in tile/mud work. I make my living and it often concerns that artform. Believe me.... there are many here that can quote you paragraph and verse these sanctions/directions. Nothing secret about it, I just don't have them memorized like others do.

I wouldn't necessarily expect a GC to know all this stuff, but I'd damned sure expect the guy who's doing the shower pan installation to at least have a glimpse of it.

As far as who should do it? Either the plumber or the tile artisan should be able. Difference is plumbers, by and large don't want to bother with concrete stuff. That's understandable. Then you're left with tile art.... uhhh tile guys. If you find an artisan, he'll know what the heck we're talking about here. Don't blame everyone, it's not their fault.... we're introducing fairly new concepts to shower pan construction and even tile installation in general that many a good tile man is not aware of.

Use your own judgement when listening to the advice we offer here and that of your contractor. One approach has to make more sense than the other. In the end, it'd be nice if all sides win. Often they do. Referees, however have to go to work the next day.

So.... I know now that you know now what you did not know, that the others knew what everyone that knows me well knows. I'm not known for my brevity (John likes that). Let's always find something nice to say about everyone every day.

Speaking of John (Bridge)... he's the guy that literally "wrote the book"....... twice!!! I think I'll not be far off his thinking on this, and he's one of those that will give you chapter and verse.

I pass my remaining time to the gentleman from Minnesota. :D:D

[John K]

Bill,

Put him back on carpentry and hire a tile contractor to do the tilework. Walla, problem solved. If he can't dp the pan assembly in the correct manner then it will be trouble all the way through.

Have him do his trade. You both will be much happier.:)

Just my two cents.

John K

[tileguytodd]

I will answer the question as best i can.A Plumber is required to be competant in the building of shower pans.The reality is ,i have torn out every plumbers pan i have seen as being done incorrectly.Up here the plumbers ask who is doing the tilework.When they find out its the shop i used to work out of or me, they just tell the general or homeowner to have the tilepeople build it because they will just tear thiers out anyway.

I am not at odds with john here about the PVC liner, i believe it to be the best option and said so in my last post.I also said that i have done many showers that were spec'd similar to what you are talking.One that comes to mind is a nursing home where 38 of them were spec'd using a trowelable membrane.Several options were spec'd we happened to use c-cure pro red.I dont recall wether Bostik's trowelable was given as an option but i would not doubt it.
The practice of using trowelable membranes is becoming more and more prevelant in new construction today.and commercial applications have been the leaders in exploiting this new technology.Now.i am not going to argue with john, i think he will agree that i have done alot more commercial work in the last 10 years than he has though ;)

[Bill Vincent]

Much as I hate to say it this won't work. I'm surprised Dave G. hasn't spoken up yet. When I first started coming into the forums, this is (almost) how I did my pans. With mine, the ultraset went in over the plywood, and then the mud inside the membrane (I didn't know anything about preslope), and I got into a discussion with Dave G. about it that ended up in a phone call. One thing he brought up that cancelled out every argument I had is if the ultra set goes in and up 6-8" on the face of the CBU, how is the vapor barrier supposed to tuck into it at the bottom of the wall? It can't happen, and if for no other reson, this method is no good.

[Sonnie Layne]

Todd, that would be John K, correct?

We've got so many John's goin' on here it's hard to keep track, I perhaps should have been more specific that I was referring to John B.

[John Bridge]

I realize we've generated a little more controversy here, and I apologize, but it's really the nature of our trade. We are a relatively small group. We are properly called "tile setters," but there are also tile installers out there.

A general contractor is most often a carpenter when it comes to the remodeling business. Carpenters have to know a lot about everything -- they are one of the so-called "basic crafts" -- but most of them defer to plumbers for plumbing, electricians for electrical and tile setters for tile. Your guy figures he can do it all. Sorry, it just doesn't happen very often. I change hats often, but there are some things I don't mess with. I call in the guys who do.

[tileguytodd]

OK I'll step back here for a moment and say that vapor barrier is another controversial issue so i am not going to even go there,I will say it again for the third time.I consider the PVC liner the best alternative here.The amount of moisture collected by a vapor barrier in a standard shower is negligeable.I consider it always but not as an end all to wether a project will work or not.I have demoed enough showers that did not have vapor barriers to make conclusions as to the amount of actual damage from uncollected moisture due to not having one at all.That said,The application will work.It is not however the best aproach to building a shower pan.The best aproach is outlined in our liberry.I stand by what i said originally.Using a PVC liner is your BEST option.Building it according to the outline in our liberry will insure the maximum life from your shower pan and give you a shower you never have to think about.The trowelable option will work, it is just not the best option available.It is also one of the most costly types of pan installation with the least amount of benefit except to the installer.(its pretty easy to paint on or trowel on the product and not have to fold corners) :)

[bcesa]

Update: The pre-slope mortar bed is in (with the goofy plywood gone), and it has the proper slope.

But contractor strongly wants to install trowelable hydroment ultra-set, and states that corner folds on PVC liner make it hard to install the wall tile flat over the corner folds (he says these installations bulge out). [Any comments on bulge from folds? It seems a legitimate issue... that is solved by the hydroment.]

I am inclined to let him proceed: he knows how to tie in the hydroment to the drain, installing the clamping drain piece over the hydroment layer without blocking the weep holes. He will trowel the hydroment on the mortar preslope (extra attention to corners and joints), and trowel it over the curb, and up the wall the proper height. Then let it dry and set.

Then, getting back to the JB method, he will install a few inches of mortar over the hydroment, with wire screen embedded, and place my 1"x1" tile over that.

I have checked the hydroment spec several times and it conforms to the requirements of a permanent impervious layer (as tileguytodd indicates, expensive but high performance). John, I know you strongly prefer the PVC, but tileguytodd seems to have successful experience with the hydroment, so at least I have some comfort level...)

So, thanks to you all, I believe I am on the road to a successful pan installation.

It would have been good if the tile store was more proactive in recommending installation methods or installers. Getting my contractor to accept other construction methods (basically, anything other than his past experience), has been tough and required some major confrontation. But if you remain insistent you can win. They are used to homeowners backing down, after they ask the owner-can't-win-question of "how many of these have YOU installed"? I told him none, but the folks I was getting help from had put in thousands!

I will post a photo when the shower is done... with another photo of the hydroment application...

[tileguytodd]

Bill, in order to get a perfect installation that does not bulge out the installer needs to notch the studs about 1/4" deep and 8" high.a little deeper notch in the corners for the folds.The other option is to shim out the walls with lathe leaving enough space for the liner.If your installer does not know this, i would get a new installer. this is really very basic stuff and i mean very basic.
He obviously has had no formal training.If he had,he would know how to install a PVC Liner properly.I wish i were closer, i could kill 2 birds with 1 stone.Get you a proper shower pan and teach this guy how to do one properly............Todd

[bcesa]

I know my contractor is proud of his work, but why does he, and many contractors, need to be so adverse to learning improved methods? That is the really frustrating part. In my job, if I avoided learning anything new, I would be looking for a new career in less than a year!

Do you have any recommendations for a tile installer in central NJ to finish the job? You don't know what a relief it would be if I could find someone with your knowledge/experience. But it seems like the situation is not all bad at present. Or, at least is could have been MUCH worse!

[Davy]

Hi Bill, I agree with Todd's last post. This guy doesn't seem to have a clue about doing tile work right. He's just starting this shower and has a long way to go, what else will he not know how to do right? You shouldn't have to baby sit him. He's the type to use mastic in a shower, just doesn't know better. I do hope it all turns out well for you.;)

[Rob Z]

Hi Bill

I have come into jobs after this method was used, and the results were less than acceptable. A friend of mine, who is an estimator for a very large tile company in the area, has detailed for me numerous failures that he is aware of using Ultraset in this manner. Because of the nature of some of the jobs, I won't mention anything specific on a public forum. Sorry to be so cryptic about this. :(

This situation has the makings of a real problem. I don't think I would let this guy finish this job.

[bcesa]

Well, I hope he has at least half a clue! I do see a container of premixed thinset next to my pile o'tile, so I assume mastic will not be in my future. Or my showers'.

But I am really tempted to go get myself a tile installer to take over the work. The difficulty is that I have already confronted him on his work, we have had words on whether I "trust" his overall work (which seems to be good on the carpentry side), and I made him rip out the plywood approach he was planning on using. So now I feel like I made him redo work (and do it per the JBForum method, generally), and I suspect that am really going to antagonize him if I go get someone else to complete the job. Can't seem to make this a total win at this point.

[Rob Z]

Bill, we nearly had a Simulpost! :) Premixed thinset is a misnomer...it isn't thinset, just mastic with sand in it. I think it has a horrible consistency to work with, but more importantly it shouldn't be used over Ultraset. I doubt it would stick to the relatively non-porous surface that Ultraset leaves behind. Using mastic in a shower, especially on a shower floor, is really asking for trouble. :eek:

[cx]

Hey, Bill, looks like this is your day! RobZ, who just showed up to help with your questions, travels up to his sister's place somewheres in Nuevo Jersey several time a year to do tile work. I figger she must have at least nine bathrooms by now. :D

Maybe he could stop by and finish your shower if you live near his sister's place. :)

Tough situation you're in, but if the guy doesn't know how to do a pan liner and showed up with mastic to tile a shower, you've gotta do something. I think you need to just tell him you're happy to have him do the other work but you'd prefer to get a tile specialist to finish the shower. If you can't find someone else to do the work, I assure you the tile guys here can walk you through it with no trouble at all if you're prepared to take the time to do it yourself. You'll get a very fine shower, learn a good deal about a new field, save yourself some dinero, and get a substantial reward in the pride of a job well done.

But first, see if you live near Rob's sister's house. It's the one with tile on everything but the window glass. :D

[tileguytodd]

Who have we got in central NJ.How close is Bill V?? Is central NJ too far for you Rob??

[bcesa]

Well now. Seems this situation is worse than I thought. And it just keeps getting worser (if you'll excuse the bad english). The more I know the worse my contractors approach is.

So, I need to tell him I want to bring in a tile installer. Is there an gentle way to do this, or do I need to my friends around? His other work is good, and I don't want to lose him halfway through the job.

Any recommendations a tile installer near East Brunswick NJ would be great. Otherwise I am reduced to interviewing those found in the yellow pages. There must be someone good around here, with all the houses and cars and such.

Thank you, all, again!

[Davy]

I think CX put it well. Tell him you'd rather have a tile specialist finish the job but would like for him to continue the wood work. He just might be relieved since you now know more about tile work than he does.

[bcesa]

Yes, Davy, my perspective exactly. I will tell him that because we have so much $ invested in tile, and because the three bathrooms are extensively tiled, that we have decided that an expert tile installer is desirable, similar to his use of subs for electric and plumbing.

Now, where do I find an installer with the knowledge, methods, and experience I see on this forum???

I would really like to do it myself, and I have seen how helpful everyone is, but work is very busy now and I am likely to be an impediment to the contractors schedule.

So, recommendations anyone?

[Rob Z]

Hey! East Brunswick is where my wife's younger brother lives! :) I can't tell you any more than that, except to say they live near a liqour store, bagel shop, a pizza joint, and the NJ turnpike. My sister in law lives in Englewood, near a liqour store, bagel shop, a pizza joint, and the NJ Turnpike. Sounds like a pattern in NJ. :D

[cx]

Well, do he set tile?


How many rellies you got up there, Z?

[bcesa]

Well I don't think he lives near me, 'cause I live near a liquour store, bagel shop, a pizza joint, and, wait, this is sounding familiar. But I'm about 5 miles from the NJ Turnpike Exit 9. I also live near a mall, but who around here doesn't. I think you left accidentally that one out. Goin' to the mall gives the kids something to do when they get tired of me sitting around talking about my contractor's tile work.

Is there a tile installer close to me that can put in a shower pan correctly, and tile floor and wall (counter height) in three bathrooms after the holidays?

[Sonnie Layne]

Far as I know, we don't have a way of sorting our database by location. I think quite a few of our installers give locations, but so many of our users don't......

It'll sort by user name, date joined, last post date.... and nearly everything except location. Don't axe me why. It's not a weakness of this site, but of the software we're using, I think. Couple lines of code would take care of it, but that's not helping you out right now.

[bcesa]

Sonnie, thanks for the attempt to find a recommended tile installer in your member database.

If someone at the web site wants to email me the database, I will ask one of my company's programmers to extract the name, email address, and location data. But usually folks are not all that willin' to send a site's database to just anyone, and I understand. So if you can think of a way to find some recommended installers from NJ in your database, I would greatly appreciate it! Or from references within the forums.

I hope that getting a good tile installer will not be as challenging as telling my contractor that he is no longer doing the tile...

[tileguytodd]

He will probobly be relieved.
Call your local Union hall to find out who the union shops are in your area.This will be a good start and eliminate alot of untrained and half trained individuals.

[bcesa]

Unfortunately, I sense that he thinks his tile work is quite good.

So much for differing standards and expectations.

Every contractor I have ever used, from the best to the worst, usually thinks that their work is wonderful, at least as expressed to the homeowner. For those that do great work their claim is well deserved. But for those that do not, how can you know? This guy had great references, and we visited his work.

This forum has helped me identify a major problem in the making, and that has been incredibly valuable.

My contractor thinks that the plywood pre-slope he installed was just fine, 'cause it worked for him in the last 5 jobs, and it has been over (pick a number) 5 years and his work has never leaked or had a problem. It seems the only way to refute this claim is by finding criminal indictments, or consulting good forums, like this one.

[bcesa]

I am still looking for a recommendation for a good tile installer in central NJ.

I am going to take my contractor off all tiling tomorrow, but I am nervous about not having a replacement lined up. I anticipate that my contractor will assert that I am likely to screw up his schedule.

Any ideas (other than the recommendation to check the union shops, which I will follow up on)???

[cx]

Not at all sure we're gonna have anybody to do the work for you, Bill. Think you need to be shopping pretty actively there locally. I know it's a bitch trying to find new subs, but it goes with the territory.

If tile in two showers and one tub surround is all you've got to do, you can confidently tell the GC that you will handle it without hurting his schedule unduly. There is a particular time in the construction that I prefer to have my tile work done, especially if there are floors, but it is something that can be worked around when necessary. It sounds like you could have the contractor do everything except one shower pan and the shower walls. He could even complete the walls in the other two bathrooms if you want him to. Tile work can be held off until everything short of final paint touch-up when necessary, although we try like hell to get it done before that.

There are a number of real tile guys here that do a lot of tear-out and replacement of existing showers. I would expect that in most cases a little paint and plaster work is all that is needed when they have finished.

Your contractor will surely bitch and say that you are screwing up his schedule, but if he were subcontracting the tile work, he would have no difficulty fitting the tile mechanic into the construction schedule wherever necessary.

It's never the best option to have part of the work in a project handled by someone other than the GC, especially when that arrangement was not made before work began, but tile work is not as difficult to work around as are some other trades or work phases. It can be done fairly painlessly.

That said, it's still a PITA to be looking for a tile man at this late stage. One suggestion I would have you entertain is to ask the GC if he knows any real tile men. Just tell him you're no longer comfortable with him doing the tile work and ask if there is a tile specialist he could bring in or let you bring in. I wouldn't anticipate any discount pricing at this point, though. :)

Oh, and check with your local tile stores. Not HD, real tile stores. They will know who the tile mechanics in the area are. Doesn't guarantee quality, of course, but it's a good place to start.

[Davy]

I do mostly new work these days but have done alot of remodel in the past. Like CX said, tile work can be done during about any stage of the project. I'll tile showers sometimes just after sheetrock is installed and other times after the painter is finished. It doesn't really hold up the job in most cases.:)

[Sonnie Layne]

just let the plumber and electricians finish there jobs. Depending on codes, of course.

[bcesa]

cx, Davy, Sonnie,

Thank you for the feedback. The job consists of tiling for two showers and one bath area, wall surround in each bathroom to counter height, and floor tile in all three bathrooms and a short hallway. This seems like a lot of tile to me; and this is the reason that I really feel it is important to shift to a tile installer. Almost the entire finished surface of the three rooms will be tile.

My GC is using premixed thinset for tile installation, and previous comments suggest that this is "modified mastic" method and is not desirable. So I am not sure I want him setting the wall or floor tile. He does not take well to my recommending materials or methods.

I don't think I am confident asking the GC to pick the tile installer; my question is why didn't he take that approach originally. At this point some financial pain is likely unavoidable, but the important element is to get the tiling done right without going bankrupt.

I called my tile store and they have a recommendation for an installer, and I found a few names on the web and telephone directory, and at least I have some idea what questions to ask regarding method when I am interviewing.

It seems that the GC can work around the tile work without too much aggravation, which is good. This has developed into a touchy situation with my GC, but there seem to be few options at this point - I either get a lousy shower pan and tile installation, or bring in a tile installer. So I might a well take a run at finding a real tile installer. Thank you all for your support. This would be an impossibly tough decision process without some pro's to help me along.

[Sonnie Layne]

I only read the first two paragraphs.


Is this some joke? I mean, we've made 1... no 2 people mad in the past that might resort to posting something like this....... premixed thinset????

Shower????

Sheetrock????

Not a wonder he doesn't have a decent tile guy working as a sub. He's too freakin' cheap and stupid to even allow the right materials be used. If you aren't too deep in debt with this clown, bail out prehence. He may be a good framer/carpenter/planner/roof guy/carpet guy/move-the-closet-to-the-left- guy..... he doesn't belong on his knees suffering out a living.

I'll now shut up. Others will be along to offer advice based on their experience.

Still here for you, good luck. :)

[tileguytodd]

Bill, in the end you will be better off.this stress will be short lived and your shower done right will never need to be done again. Hows that for a payoff :)

[bcesa]

Sonnie, et al,

Good news! The GC rolled over without much of a fight over the tile install. You all were right - he seemed relieved. Even offered to rebate his labor fee. Now all I gotta do is find a competent tile installer. The faster the better. I have some names of installers, and based on the hell I have been though I am thinking of putting together a little test for when I meet these folks:
Q: are plywood preslopes cleaner on yer shoes than deck mud?
Q: is premixed thinset really glue hiding in a cement bucket?
Q: does the PVC go on the floor or the shower curtain rod?
Q: can you just cut off all that extra PVC in the corners?
Q: is 13"x13" tile OK for the shower floor or should it be bigger?

I just talked to an interested tile installer, and I was relating the story of my plywood preslope, and his solution was to put deck mud over it, even when I told him it flexed...

Sonnie, if you only read the first two paragraphs, how do you get to the end??? I know, I'll just write everything in one big paragraph!

Thank you again and again. Oh yeah, and again.

[Sonnie Layne]

Golly, Bill.... you've come out with the situation mostly in hand. That's a great relief to us all. We've heard so many nightmare stories of late that ended up in litigation or worse.

Wait a minute.... are you one of those giants of men who look scary even when you're laughing???? We got a couple hangin' around here and they never seem to have any problems at all getting what they want. It's gotta be that, or you're a lawyer :D

anyway, glad things are starting to go your way. Aren't you glad it's such a PITA to get things done right?

I'd bet that guy you're talkin' about, who would mud over flex plywood, is probably my brother's tile guy, who installed tumbled marble in a mobile home. :D

[cx]

Progress. :)

You can get a good idea about your prospective tile person by simply asking them if they generally comply with the methods recommended by the TCA (Tile Council of America).

"Whazzat?" is not the most desirable response. :shades:

[bcesa]

How 'bout "Huh?"

Is that an OK response? Or are we going to demand fully formed sentences? Really, thanks, asking about TCA methods is much easier than preparing the "quiz", and I don't have to grade on a curve!

No, Sonnie, I am not real scary big, or mean (well the kids might not agree with that...) I just work for a big water/wastewater engineering firm, where construction inspection and an RE is part of the way of getting things done right. And, since I live there, doing daily inspections does not involve much travel....

[John Bridge]

Well, I went a lot of years without invoking the TCA in every other sentence. :) I don't think I would use that as the sole criterion.

[cx]

Well, I went a lot of years without ever actually seeing a copy of the TCA Handbook myownself, and I depended upon my tile man to do the right thing all those years with mostly good results. But I at least knew there were such standards, which I find is not always the case with a lot of people setting tile in my area. :(

I agree that the prospective tile setter needn't be able to cite chapter and verse, but I think his at least having knowledge of the existence of industry standards is something I would consider a plus in my search for a mechanic.

Which search I am also conducting for myownself these days. :(:(