How about the National Tile Contractors Assoc.?

[chip]

If the TCA is not the "tile Industry", can I assume that these guys meet with every ones approval?

Art Phenis

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[Bud Cline]

Art,

NO!

You know what happens when you assume something!

ASS-U-ME!

[chip]

THE NATIONAL TILE CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION isn't approved of by any one on this forum?

What haven't they done to gain your acceptance?

This is a contractor driven organization, and I can't get one of you to express any possitives.

We know Bud doesn't appreciate them, but I just blew that off as "well you know Bud?" but then no one stepped up!!!

What's uuuuuuuuuupppppppppppp??????????????????

Art Phenis

[John Bridge]

C'mon, Art. I don't even belong to the BBB because I don't want to pay the annual dues.

[kalford]

The TCA doesn't take a stand AGAINST any product that falls BELOW even THEIR minimum standards.For alot of installations they simply say,"modified thinset OR dryset mortar(non-modified)" without acknowledging that without an additive some of those dryset mortars fall well below TCA's own minimum standards.What's up with that!? Could it be........ummmmmmmmm......MONEY!?!?

[Rob Z]

Art

EEAASSYYY NOW BIG FELLA! You're working yourself up into a lather at the keyboard. Come up here to Virginia and burn off some of that excess energy helping me mix mud.

I will state for the record that I appreciate what the TCA and the NTCA are trying to do for the tile industry. I would like to see some of the facts and figures that go into some of the decision making that goes on. I usually like to know WHY something is so, rather than just a directive to do so. This is why I didn't do well in ARMY ROTC in college.

I think that these organizations are a lot like church committees-composed of volunteers with the best of intentions in mind, but plauged by politics and infighting. The finished product is good, but not close to perfect. I just can't accept everything hook, line and sinker.

With that being said, I plan on going to CTEF within the next year for another class or two.

It's what we should all do. Study the conventional wisdom and ultimately decide for ourselves what is right for each of us and our business. And we each should try to improve the situation rather than just bad mouth everything. By participating in this and other Forums we are making a step in the right direction.

Rob

[chip]

I really think that you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

Being told what to do.

Somebody had to make the rules, no matter what endeaver we are discussing.

Are they always right, of course not. Is there in fighting in any organization, certainly. Even in this forum.

Keith,

We already kicked that around.

For the record dry set mortar will absorb into clay body tiles and adhere them to cement. Is it as strong as a modified product? No. Should you use modified, that is your call, if it will absorb moisture it will work either way.

John,

I understand that it is $375.00 a year, but you can still back them.

Good night

Art Phenis

[kalford]

Art,
I'm not interested in doing all that typing again especially as slow as I am.I would like to clear up one point.
I can make a paste with flour&water that will adhere tile to cement,but for HOW LONG and under WHAT CONDITIONS will it HOLD!?
You just said the same thing that the TCA guide says.....ANY MORTAR will do, and nothing could be further from the truth.If no recomendations regarding individual products abilities to meet MINIMUM standards are going to be made then why have minimum standards in the first place?

[John Bridge]

$375 buys a lot of brewskies. And I don't think what we do can be called "in-fighting." I prefer to call it "discussion." :-)

[kalford]

That's right John.Quite frankly,I don't care if it's set with toothpaste.......AS LONG AS IT will LAST A LIFETIME..........and colgate will warranty it.

[Rob Z]

Another point about the TCA and NTCA...We are all free to try to contribute and affect/effect policy. I may try someday, but feel i need to put in a few more years and gain more experience to gain credibility. If for nothing else, the TCA is useful for me to have something of some authority to fall back on and bolster my position when dealing with an unreasonable architect, designer, GC, or homeowner. I'm sure we all have had the situations where someone on the job is trying to tell us how to do something with absolutely no idea what they are talking about. I have successfully called the bluff of more than one GC, homeowner, architect, etc by quoting them the exact standards from the manufacturer and /or TCA. It forces them to shut up. Recall my story from many postings ago about the architect that was referring to a thinset over plywood installation as a "mud job".

If it takes a set of enumerated standards to deal with these kind of bozos, then it's fine with me.

The TCA standards also provide a convenient way to bid a job. TCA W244-01 details a cbu installation on studs in wet areas. It's a lot easier to list W244-01 in your bid than to write it all out. Plus, it sets you apart from all the hackers that are bidding against you.

Rob

[Bud Cline]

I'm all FOR the TCA, the NTCA, the ABC, and the XYZ, I need all the help I can get. Between these organizations and casual conversation on the Internet I've learned a lot about this business and still learning everyday.

The problem was I began to get a big head because I knew (or thought I did) more than the local hacks that do nothing to educate or improve themselves. I then began to feel my efforts were worth more, not necessarily because of my expanded knowledge but because to properly follow and adhere to these recommendations usually takes more time.

It didn't take long for the retailers I installed for to tire of my constant referrals to TCA, ANSI and the like, and my prices were slowly escalating at the same time. Now I find myself getting only the jobs that require some technical expertise and I'm being bypassed on the other "production" jobs, the "no-brainers" as one retailer calls them. The retailers rather have the Hacks and the prices the Hacks charge, they say they have been doing it this way for years and years, why change now.

A guy could starve to death in this business if he knows too much.

[kalford]

You're right Bud.That point is what prompted the NEED to educate the consumer and the movement to do just that on flooringinstaller.If the consumer has at least SOME knowledge of what's right for there situation then the retailers(hacks with a pen)might not get by with using the hacks so much to do half-ass installations that last maybe a few years.

I too site TCA standards when talking to a customer(sometimes)and then demonstrate how much the product I use EXCEEDS those minimum standards by showing them the spec sheet if they are interested in seeing it.And if they know what jo-blo is using,I'll pull out the specs for comparison on that too.

[Rob Z]

Hi Bud and Keith

Good points...I adopted the approach some time ago that if someone wanted a cheap installation then they could have it, so long as they got an explanation from me first about why it's not a good installation and they understood there was absolutely no warranty. If they still wanted it done cheaply, they could have it. The thing that has happened for me is that slowly but surely the only calls I get (most of the time) are for the work that someone wants done correctly or to come in after the fact and tear out what the butcher did the first time. It has worked for me to set high standards (not insanely high-I'm not working in the White House or for Bill Gates) and work for those people that want it.

One thing I have noticed when talking to successful, skilled craftsmen in the various trades is that they fought with these same issues their whole working career. What they tell me is that as long as they did good work, they always had good customers, even when times weren't so good. In our mass production economy there will always be people making more money turning out lots of mediocre junk than someone producing nice, quality work. We can thank Henry Ford for this, I guess.

I have come to grips with the fact that I am only going to make a good living doing nice work that I am proud of, rather than hire ten piece workers to pump out production junk for the builders of the zillion dollar "Garage Mahals" and "McMansions" and get rich running a multi million dollar a year company.


Oh well, back to the kid's painting project.

Rob

[Bud Cline]

I have often thought of quoting jobs with an "A Price" and a "B Price".

Problem is....if they choose the "B Price" then I'm not so sure I would be willing to do it afterall.

[chip]

Now we are getting somewhere.

Yes the true craftsmen have stood up and want to be counted. That in my mind is why these alphabet soup organizations exist.

Craftsmen that have stood the test of time and also have set the standard for how things should be done.

They have learned and taught the masses from there trials and erorrs, the best class room.

These predecesors of yours formed these organizations for you. Not the production guys, slam it in and get paid and move on to the next pay check sorts.

Please look at the members of these organizations and read into what they are truly doing there.

These organizations have 1st and foremost on their agenda, to make the installation of ceramic tile a successful endeavor for all involved. Especially you and your company.