travertine [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

PDA

View Full Version : travertine


b82
07-13-2010, 12:38 AM
To all you kind folk. I got an offer I couldnt refuse on some travertine 18x18. BUT----- I have found that offers for work laying it run the gamut. 800sq'. Anywhere from $6000-10,000. I asked many questions and eliminated many of the individuals I felt unprofessional. Now, these figures were just for laying the tile, all other work and materials were to be furnished by me. By the way, nothing fancy here, i.e. no special design or art work. Is the underlayment the most important aspect of the job here? I have done a lot of ceramic tile, BUT, IS IT POSSIBLE THAT I COULD DO THIS MYSELF, with of course your expert suggestions. Your time and opinions I really appreciate.

Thanks,

Brad

Sponsored Links


Higher Standard Tile
07-13-2010, 12:52 AM
Brad,

If you have done ceramic, you can do travertine with some expert advice. It does require more exacting prep work, a stiffer floor, and typically smaller grout joints than ceramic. Where are you located? Maybe one of the professionals here can do the job for you. They won't be cheap but at least it will be done right. Or if you want to do it yourself one of the moderators will move the thread over to the dyi section so we can help you do it yourself.

b82
07-13-2010, 01:03 AM
Thanks Isaac. Dang I sure wish I live where you are. Only been there once, best vacation Ive EVER taken. I live in Ks. I would really like to tackle it on my own, but I have had many warn me of the difficulty of floor leveling. Im not really too concerned about that part and think I can make sure the floor is level. What concerned me are the many opinions I received about underlayment-- Ditra, nothing, some new type of pvc Ive never heard of, Noble, and others I cant even remember now. I plan to replace ALL the old plywood with Advantech as it is much more dense and I had good luck with that in my bathroom I finished. By the way I paid $1/piece for the 18x18x1/2. Do all of you consider that a good deal, or did I get screwed??

jondon
07-13-2010, 04:23 AM
Hello Brad,

First off, 1.00 for a 18" piece is a super duper good rate, why so cheap? I know last travertine job I did that size I believe they were about 5.00 for an 18" piece, course some travertine is more quality than others. Does yours have lots of filler in it? Travertine pits really easy so its not a great surface for a high traffic area or where there is a lot of water. The pits can be filled but there is a learning curve there too! Its beautiful don't get me wrong but for the areas I just mentioned, porcelain to look like travertine is a much better choice. So I do wonder why it was so cheap, that is really cheap for that size of travertine.

As for using it in your home, you first off have to determine if you can support all that new weight on the floor, you have to use our defecto meter here to make that determination. What kind of subfloor system do you have. Travertine in gonna put a lot of weight on your floor so you got to be able to support that new weight or its gonna fail on you and then you're gonna have lots of problems. The important thing now is to determine if the floor support system can handle it, and if not what can you do to strengthen it. Thats your first issue to deal with. If you have the proper subfloor structure then you can address what kind of underlayment to use. Ditra would be something to look into, easy to put down and only 1/8" thickness.

As for the question of whether you can do this yourself. If you have done ceramic tile then there is no reason you couldn't do this. 18" is bigger than what you're used to but I would consider a leveling system. Preferably the TLS, Tuscan Leveling System. There is some learning curve to it but once you get the hang of it you'll be glad you used it. Great for large format tiles or stone in your case. Would help you get your floor 99% lippage-free if used corrrectly. Of course your only gonna be as level as what you're tiling onto. If you do try this yourself you would be saving much money, and you can spend some of that dough on the TLS. :tup1:

b82
07-13-2010, 09:34 AM
Jondon,

Thanks for your advice. It takes time for you to type all that info and Im very grateful! I bought it cheap because it was going out of stock and on to a new type of travertine. There was not a lot left on the palate, so I just threw the 1 dollar figure out there knowing he'd say go away. He didnt, so I bought all of it. Now Im on a mission to get the rest for the job as I still need 100 pieces. It does not have a lot of filler. THe back side is very porous and that would be another question I have, DO you fill all the holes in the back with thin set? Ive seen the defecto meter during my research and I understand what it is, but not how it works. The joists are 2x10 and i was going to double both sides with 2x6 that run the length of the floor. Would that be sufficient? By the way, how much is the TLS?

Thanks Brad

bbcamp
07-13-2010, 09:50 AM
You'll fill the holes on the back when you burn in the thinset.

The deflecto tool can't handle the kind of sistering you are doing. Let me know the span and spacing and I'll work out the math.

Contact the distributers for the TLS for pricing. Click on the "level your tile" link at the right. They sell kits, but you can get individual piece pricing as well.

ob1kanobee
07-13-2010, 11:04 AM
I would not suggest setting that much Travertine as a DIYfer. There is quit a bit of skill involved, special saws, places where you may have to wrap or tie in the floor so that the tiles come together not only joint wise but height wise.

As far as the price goes, ballpark figure if you are supplying everything and you are located in KS I would have to guess around $6,500 range to install underlayment, Travertine and seal the floor when done (possibly a little more depending on everything that may be involved).

I wouldn't waste my time buying a TLS, a saw, a mixer and anything else you may need. Plus, the chances of it looking like a pro did it are not good. Every DIY Travertine job that I have seen looks pretty bad.

My .02 cents

jondon
07-13-2010, 12:49 PM
Ben, have you taken a look at Alex's travertine shower/bathroom project? He's a DIYer and I think his looks pretty dahm good:shades:

That is the call you will have to make, though you say you have put in a lot of ceramic tiles so you know the basic concept of installing tile. If you are going to be putting them in square set and not diagonal then you don't need a special saw. What saw did you use to cut your ceramic tile? As for burning the thinset into the back of the travertine you can handle that.

I have to disagree about the TLS, I don't use it much but its especially good for a DIYer, and again there is a little learning curve. As for the cost of the TLS it would be well worth you're while if your doing it yourself and saving the 6500.00

Its your call and it is different from doing ceramic tiles but just a little more to it. Of course if you do get someone to do it, make sure they give you some references of work they have done. Go look at the work, don't just take they're word. And as for price I would agree with Ben about 6500.00 for the installation, done right. If you get someone to do it make sure they are established and again you have to make sure your floor can support the new weight of all that stone.

b82
07-13-2010, 04:36 PM
Thanks for ALL your suggestions!! I really appreciate all your tips. I have a basement below the floor where the travertine will be laid. The largest room is 13X15. So far I have 5 bids and not one has mentioned floor support for any of the areas. Is that a bad sign? I do want to do a good job and Im grateful for your honesty. My first tile job was ugly, but I did very little research.
I have seen the work from one of the quotes from one of the gent that gave me a $7500 bid. He had lots of pics and his work is good. To be honest if I had the money I would let him do it--- I dont have it.

I wish Id known about this sight before my first job, It would have really helped. Please tell me more about floor strength when you have a moment.


Thanks,

Brad

Brian in San Diego
07-13-2010, 05:14 PM
So far I have 5 bids and not one has mentioned floor support for any of the areas. Is that a bad sign?Yes, it is. You can do your own checking of your joist strength with the amazing Deflecto tool in the dark blue toolbar above. Plug in your numbers and Deflecto will tell you if it' a go/no go for either ceramic or stone. If it's a "no go" then we'll discuss your options.

Brian

anonymouscuban
07-13-2010, 05:41 PM
Wow... Thanks Jon. I know you told me I did a good job but I thought you were just being polite. :dance:

@Brad... I just finished up my bathroom and walk-in closet in my master bedroom in Travertine. I used 16x16, 4x4 and 2x2 in various patterns. It wasn't easy but I wouldn't say it was impossible either. Mostly, it just took a lot of patience. I tried my best to get my substrate flat but I still had some issues. There were times when I would put down a tile and one side would end up lower or higher than the other. It was real tempting at times to just say, "eh, it's just a little lippage" and leave it but I forced myself to do it right. This required pulling up the tile, scraping thinset off and then re-trowelling, back buttering, etc. until the tile was level and flat with the rest. There were a few times when I knew I just wasn't in the mood to deal with it so I simply stopped, chucked the thinset I mixed away and called it a day. In the end, it was worth it. I am extremely happy with the results. Actually, my wife got a chuckle the other day because she says she's caught me a number of times just standing in the room admiring my work. Very rewarding.

Again, just have patience, take your time and if you're not sure about something, post it here and listen to these guys. Did I say have patience?

jondon
07-13-2010, 06:30 PM
posted by Bob earlier today
The deflecto tool can't handle the kind of sistering you are doing. Let me know the span and spacing and I'll work out the math.

Brad,

Bob has offered to help you on this. Yes if no one has mentioned the floor support for your project that is a red flag. Travertine is gonna be a lot of extra weight, more than ceramic and if your floor structure won't support it you are gonna have big problems. If your floor deflects too much because of the added weight you are gonna be very unhappy:uhh:

Do this right, do it once if your floor will support it. Personally if your floor will not support this travertine you might be able to sell it and make some money, get yourself something else. Some porcelain, just an option.

posted by Alex
Wow... Thanks Jon. I know you told me I did a good job but I thought you were just being polite.

Nope Alex, I call it like I see it. You mentioned patience and I can't say enough about that word. In this day and age, maybe every age, everyone can't wait to getter done. When you hurry you miss things and do sloppy work in many cases. When you ask questions, take your time, try different options and of course you have some "working with your hands" skills, you will end up with what Alex has! I don't blame him for standing back and admiring his work, it says he did it right and the outcome was what he wanted. But.......... it didn't happen overnight.

Alex spoke of lifting up tiles, removing, adding thinset to avoid the lippage. The TLS will allow you to put your tile down, and not have to lift it back up once you're used to it, a great investment should you decide to do this yourself. Good for any large format tiles, I like to use it with marble too since it has a beveled edge. Key is to make the thinset the right consistency.

You say you don't have the money for the guy you would like to hire. See this is what happens, you end up with someone who will do it really cheap and in the end you won't get the job you want. Don't sacrifice quality. If you can't do it all now, hire him to do what you can afford, then do the rest later. People make the mistake of hiring the cheapest and in many cases they get the cheapest job, you get what you pay for in many cases.

But you must go back to floor support, your number #1 priority right now:tup1:

b82
07-14-2010, 12:58 AM
Well-------SH-----t. Im glad I talked to you guys first. Maybe GOD sent me here so I wouldn't screw it up. Why didnt any of these tilers tell me about floor strength?? You'd think one of them would have said something. Anyway, 2x10, 16 centers, 23'. Deflecto says vinyl only. I ripped that trash out before I moved in. I REALLY WANT TO PUT THIS DOWN. Im guessing here and assuming that the floor may buckle and or fail??

Ive got a pretty nice place and would like to make it look great. Ive got that fake pergo down now and my beloved hates it. I do have a full basement, but I want it upstairs, not down. Now what, I-beams? HELP!

And thanks again,

Brad

b82
07-14-2010, 01:54 AM
To all of you for your mention of floor strength, THANK YOU! Bob if you're out there somewhere maybe we can do the Vulcan mind meld and you can give me some equitable solution. If deflecto wont work giving me a correct answer here is the info; 2x10, 23 ft joists, 16 center. According to deflecto I should have paper or plastic. Maybe I should just go to a car show with you instead. Please, what are my options and, if you dont mind, dont make one of them selling the tile-its probably the only good deal Ive ever made before.

Brad:smash:

bbcamp
07-14-2010, 04:17 AM
Do you really have 23 foot long joists with no mid-span supports? How does that floor feel when you walk on it? Bouncy? Even with 3 2x10s, your floor would not qualify for, well, anything.

Look for partition walls, support beams, or anything that the joists are resting on. If you don't find anything, look for areas where you could install a beam or wall. That's the best way to get this floor in condition for stone. To avoid sistering, your span needs to be about 10 1/2 feet or less. With a single sister, a beam in the middle will put your floor well over the requirements.

b82
07-14-2010, 10:14 AM
Thanks Bob and all of you that have helped me,

Yes there is a wall with support in the center of the joist at about 11' from one wall to the other. At ONLY ONE LOCATION there is also a 4x4 supporting the floor, but there are no others that I can see. There is also a load bearing wall in 2 other areas. Would it help if I sent any pictures?

Thanks,

Brad

bbcamp
07-14-2010, 11:21 AM
Yes, pictures always help. Draw a sketch of the framing down there, too.

b82
08-06-2010, 03:15 PM
Im placing tile on my main floor (yes the floor can support it) and its large travertine, 18x18. I want to know from the pro's would you use 1/4" or 1/2" duroc on the subfloor? Subfloor is 3/4" plywood.

Thanks,
Brad

Davestone
08-06-2010, 03:25 PM
Your floor requires 2 layers of plywood for stone,so if everything checks out you may wind up with another 3/8" plywood and 1/4" cbu.

b82
08-08-2010, 02:43 PM
I have torn up my old carpet on the main level of my home. I have 18x18 travertine, 1/2" thick and was given the ok (thnks to all of you who asked me to ck on this) by a structural engineer. I only have 3/4" plywood for a subfloor (basement underneath) and want to know if I should add an additional layer of plywood, what grades are acceptable, AND, if screws would be sufficient to secure it. Additionally, would 1/4" cbu be acceptable, or 1/2". Thanks to all of you who made this wonderful site.

Brad

jadnashua
08-08-2010, 02:49 PM
Stone tile REQUIRES two layers of ply, so yes, you need to add a layer. It needs to be at least 3/8" thick, C or better on both faces, and exposure 1 or exterior rated glue. Offset the ends and edges of the ply sheets so no seams line up between sheets. The end of the top sheet should be 1/4-span offset. Say you have 16" OC, the end should be 4" from the joist. Screws are fine. Gluing can be problematic, and you need to treat it as a lamination with a full coverage of glue, not some dabs of construction adhesive or you add to the problem. The spec is based on must screwing it in place (properly).

cx
08-08-2010, 04:10 PM
Brad, if you'll bookmark this thread and use it for all your project questions it'll help our folks see what's been previously asked and answered and keep you from missing some of the responses, too. We can give it a more generic title any time you'd like to suggest one. :)

I'm a little concerned about your structural engineer if you're still having to ask about subflooring options.

Did you specifically tell the engineer that you required a joist deflection no greater than L/720? Or did he give you a report indicating that your joists met that requirement?

b82
08-08-2010, 10:12 PM
CX,

The engineer that came over and looked was an older gent, 84 to be exact and we walked over the entire house, but especially the basement. He did a lot of calculations and assured me that the subfloor would hold the tile. I had the tile there, so he looked at it and we used the weight of each tile on the floor. If he didnt know what he was doing he did a good job of fooling me. In fairness to this older guy, none of the estimates I received form ANY of the tile setters mentioned floor strength. I have learned more here talking to all of you than any of the books I have purchased (6). Is Johns book a good investment?

Brad

jadnashua
08-08-2010, 10:18 PM
There is a BIG difference between the floor supporting the weight verses being stiff enough to keep the deflection within the limits required for tile to survive.

b82
08-08-2010, 11:01 PM
Thanks Jim. I know that I'll have to put down an additional layer of plywood now. Im sure glad I came here--- I would really have screwed it up. If the minimum grade is 3/8", what ply manufacturer would you recommend?

Brad

cx
08-08-2010, 11:21 PM
Brad, what Jim is trying to tell you is that there is a substantial difference between a guy, even an engineer guy, telling you your floor structure will support your anticipated load, and a guy telling you your floor structure will not deflect more than 1/720th of the joist span if subjected to that load. Very different animals.

But if you're happy with his declaration, I'm happy with his declaration. :)

b82
08-08-2010, 11:39 PM
Cx,
I really like your sense of humor. If I took pics of my joists and posted them, would that be of any help? Im trying to give the engineer the benefit of the doubt BUT is he absolutely right, I dont know. He claimed that I could put the tile down and still put 40 people in the room and it would support them, so perhaps he was talking support and not deflection. He did look at my basement in detail and we measured the span and we looked at each individual joist for rot or damage. The span is just under 11ft. I know I need an additional layer of plywood and will put that down. If these joists need sistering, Im going to have to find those posts as Im unfamiliar with that.
Thanks for answering so late,

Brad

b82
09-19-2010, 05:26 PM
After reading and listening to all of you and the numerous threads here, Ive decided to let a professional install my travertine. I hate to spend the money, but I want it done correctly. I know that I have to put down another 3/8" plywood on top of my existing subfloor, but I cant find out here is there must be a specific grade required, like there is for the subfloor. Appreciate your opinions.

Brad

Brian in San Diego
09-19-2010, 06:37 PM
The second layer of plywood has the same requirements for the first layer. It is also extremely important how that second layer is installed and fastened.

Davestone
09-19-2010, 07:08 PM
Here's an old post by Brian in fact about this..

If everything is O.K. in that department then you should read this article (http://www.johnbridge.com/images/mike2/For%20Liberry%20Stuff/Underlayment-Nielsen-Woeste-0604.pdf..pdf) in determining how to lay your 1/2" plywood. I also would make sure you used CC or better exterior glue plywood for both layers. No sheathing or CDX wanted in a tile installation. When attaching the second layer be sure to nail to the plywood subfloor only not the joists.

jadnashua
09-19-2010, 07:36 PM
A pro worth his salt will check the deflection and the rest of the floor's requirements, but there a just as many out there that will just install it, not knowing.

Click on the 'Deflecto' in the blue bar above, measure your joists, and put those numbers into the tool. It will tell you if the joists are sufficient for either ceramic or natural stone. If it fails, you have to either fix it, or accept the fact that it may not survive. Problems don't always show up immediately...sometimes it can take years.

b82
09-30-2010, 03:20 PM
Well to all of you helped me, thanks! Overall my travertine floor looks OK. There is lippage in numerous areas, like you said there would be, but not so bad I want it replaced. I had a professional install it ( and asked him about the TLS system -he had not heard of it) but not seal it. It has been down for about 3 days now and I want to seal it myself. I like the look of that enhanced sealer but don't know what brand/manufacturer to purchase. The tile was NOT sealed before the grout was laid and I would like to know if the sealer for the tile will seal the grout also. Ive read the threads that said I should have sealed first, yeah, I screwed up. Tell me please, what brand of sealer do you recommend.

Thanks,
Brad

Houston Remodeler
09-30-2010, 04:01 PM
Go to Lowes and get the dupont stuff in the brown bottles made for marble.

b82
12-12-2010, 12:47 PM
I went to the liberry and looked for ditra use on shower walls. If there is any info there I missed it. I have plenty of ditra left and wondering if using this over cement board is acceptable. I'm planning on using my leftover travertine on the walls on the shower walls only, not the floor. Give me your thoughts please.

Thanks,

Brad

Brian in San Diego
12-12-2010, 01:00 PM
Brad,

Ditra is for floors only. The Schluter waterproofing membrane for showers is Kerdi.

Brian

b82
12-15-2010, 12:26 AM
I'm wanting to put down ditramat in my bathroom on top of plywood. I cannot find a dealer where I live that carries Laticrete, versabond, or any of the others that you mentioned in the posts. I went to Lowes and HD and they dont have any of the ones you recommend. I purchased one from a local LARGE lumber and flooring supply store called FULL FLEX. It is a latex modified thinset and is manufactured by Tec. Ive never heard of them and don't want to put it down without the OK from all of you. It is gray in color and the tile is travertine. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Brad

C.R.L Construction
12-15-2010, 04:29 AM
Tec is a good company. They are my go to after Laticrete. Lowes should have something good as well. Up here they are the Mapei dealer. best of luck.

b82
12-15-2010, 09:01 AM
Thanks Chris!

Brian in San Diego
12-15-2010, 09:11 AM
Brad,

I merged your thinset question in with your original thread. One project, one thread is the way we roll.

I would not use the TEC full flex to set the travertine if it's grey in color. I would want white. You do have a decision to make regarding installing stone over Ditra. Stone is heavy and it tends to "settle" in regular thinset causing lippage after the tiles are set. The recommendation with stone is to use a marble & granite medium bed mortar. Now for the dilemma. All medium bed mortars are modified. By the letter of the law you shouldn't use modified thinset to set tile on Ditra.

I will tell you that I have done two projects over Ditra and used medium bed mortar both times without a problem, My advantage...I had plenty of time to let the mortar cure.

Tec does make a medium bed mortar and surprisingly enough they call it "medium bed mortar".

Brian

b82
12-15-2010, 09:46 PM
Thanks Brian and sorry about starting a new one, it was late and I know better. I have 2 questions for you now as Im confused. I'm putting the Ditra directly on top of plywood ( deflecto and all sublfloor has ckd ok) and I thought I was supposed to use MODIFIED thin set between Ditra and plywood, and UNMODIFIED between Ditra and tile. Could you set me straight please. This store didnt have white, but why white??? Does it matter?? As long as you are here, I have an Onyx shower pan and am wondering what type of adhesive you would use to bond to floor(plywood). I am dry fitting everything as I realize from listening to all of you how much I DONT know. Thanks for your help and anything else you think is important please let me know.

Brad

Brian in San Diego
12-15-2010, 11:23 PM
Brad,

By the letter of the law you are 100% correct. Modified thinset to stick Ditra to plywood and unmodified to set tile over Ditra. That being said I think every person has to weigh what they are most concerned about...a Schluter warranty or a perfect installation. When I set 18x18 travertine my biggest concern was a perfectly flat, level floor with no lippage. I worried that those tiles may "sink" into the thinset after I had them set and lippage would be the result. I opted to take my chances and use a medium bed mortar even though it would void my Schluter warranty. I got the result I was looking for. I did leave an extended period of time before grouting to allow the thinset to cure.

The reason you want to use white thinset with travertine (a relatively light colored stone unless, of course, you are getting walnut or some other darker shade) is to eliminate the possibility of the grey thinset staining or showing through the thin spots of the tile. Most travertine is filled and hone on one side only and there are voids on the underside. These voids when filled with grey thinset can alter the color of the tile. White thinset tends not to do that.

I don't know anything about your shower base. I suggest thoroughly reading the manufacturer's installation instructions.

Brian

b82
12-16-2010, 12:18 AM
Thanks Brian, I really appreciate your explanation and advice. I had a pro lay my lower level with travetine and there is much more lippage and some of it I made him fix. He was not happy about it either. I guess Id just like to do this myself as I will take my time and make sure its correct. Do you use a TLS or just a level and eyeballs? I dont want to spend the money to buy TLS system as Id really have no use for it after this job. I would like to use the correct mortar what manufacturer do you recommend?Id like to know what kind of grout you use also, if you dont mind. I wish there were instructions for this shower pan, there were none. It is EXTREMELY heavy and I may not need an adhesive, but I dont want it to shift at all after its set. I guess Ill just call the Onyx company. I wish you lived out here, Id just hire you.

Thanks again,

Brad

Brian in San Diego
12-16-2010, 12:44 AM
Brad,

My master bath floor was laid by sweat, perseverance and a Tavy tile puck. It was a small job, but I really took my time.

The entry was a far more complex installation with different materials. I did use the TLS for that job.

I used CBP Marble & Granite medium bed mortar on the upstairs and Laticrete 220 Marble & Granite for the downstairs. Upstairs I used CBP PolyBlend grout in Canvas. Downstairs I used Spectralock epoxy in parchment.

Brian

Gater
12-16-2010, 06:29 AM
I dont want to spend the money to buy TLS system as Id really have no use for it after this job.

Brad,

I would urge you to reconsider your position on TLS. I just used the TLS to set a 400 sq ft outdoor patio in travertine. It's a great system, espcially for inexperienced tile setters. It will greatly improve the quality of your finished floor - I know this from experience.

It's pricey, but you will be able to sell the caps and the installation tool when you're finished. It's a great system and it does work, IMO.

b82
12-20-2010, 09:50 PM
Not much info here on a product called MerKrete, so, I would like your input once again please. I have purchased Hydroguard for duroc prior to tiling AND MerKrete 720 white marble polymer modified dry set mortar. The 720 is for ditra to plywood. Secondly, do any of you have any experience with Onyx shower bases?? The base I purchased is 5ftX3ft and EXTREMELY HEAVY with one open side and 3 sides with a 1/2 inch tall X 1/4 inch wide lip. Question; Would you install the duroc "over" the top of this lip, or inside of it? Any suggestions much appreciated.

Thanks,

Brad

cx
12-20-2010, 10:22 PM
Merkrete makes good products, Brad, but the 720 you're looking at is a medium bed mortar and not what you'd want to use to set your Ditra. You want a thinset mortar (not medium-bed) meeting ANSI A118.11 for that purpose.MerKrete 720 white marble polymer modified dry set mortar.Gotta be careful with those terms. You cannot, for example, have a mortar that is both a dry-set and polymer modified. Dry-set indicates the mortar is un-modified and meets only ANSI A118.1 specifications.

The Mrekrete site (http://www.merkrete.com/literature/MK720MP8.5x11.pdf) give specs that are a bit uncertain, I'll admit, saying both that the 720 can be used over a plywood substrate and that it meets A118.4, which does not include the use over exterior glue plywood.

Not sure how that got in there, but I'll point it out to our resident Merkrete rep.

My opinion; worth price charged.

b82
12-21-2010, 12:14 AM
Thanks CX. Here is what it says EXACTLY on the front of the bag:

720 white
Marble Pro
medium bed
polymer modified
portland cement
dry set mortar
ANSI 118.4 and 118.11

Now I need to ask, What SHOULD I USE IT FOR if anything????????

Anyone used Onyx products???? I would sure like your input.

Thanks,
Brad

cx
12-21-2010, 08:11 AM
Yeah, and now the rep is gonna 'splain me how it's used in a dry set installation method rather than a wet set method and, therefore, their information is correct. And I'll say..................... :rolleyes:

But I certainly see your point. And I'm sure they want their website information to indicate that the product meets A118.11, too. :)

You want a thinset mortar, one that does not indicate it is a medium-bed mortar (the aggregate is much too course for installing something like Ditra) and says it meets A118.11.

You can get one of those at your local Big-Box stores. Homer will carry Custom products (VersaBond), Lowe's will have Laticrete or Mapei products, but it's always a guess at just which mortars they'll stock in either brand.

You can use the medium bed most effectively for setting poorly gauged tiles or flat tiles over poorly prepared substrates (or both) or for relatively heavy tiles to prevent them sagging into the mortar after your set them nice and flat, or.......other applications. It's useful stuff, just not what you want to use to install an uncoupling membrane.

My opinion; worth price charged.

merkretetyler
12-21-2010, 08:21 AM
Brad and CX,

The Marblepro 720 is a medium bed polymer modified thinset. It does meet ANSI A118.4 and A118.11. It is suitable for installing Ditra over a plywood substrate. I agree with CX that typically you don't need a medium bed for this application, so use it with a 1/4" x 3/8" notch trowel.

CX, the term dryset has become known as a non modified thinset but what it really means is that the thinset has water retention agents included so, we no longer have to soak the tiles to get proper hydration, or we set the tile "dry". My point, you can certainly have a modified "dryset" mortar or thinset.

If you are bedding a shower basin, the 720 will be a good choice for that.

I hope that helps. CX, I will check the Marblepro 720 data sheet and with our marketing department, if the 720 data sheet only lists ANSI A 118.4, it should also list A118.11. The ANSI 118.11 testing is an extension of the 118.4 testing standard. So you must pass A118.4 and then do additional tests to meet or exceed A118.11.

Sincerely,

Brian in San Diego
12-21-2010, 11:14 AM
Jim,

I'm sure your know your product, but I will have to respectfully disagree that this is a good product for attaching Ditra to a wood subfloor. Your trowel size advice is way too big for Ditra. Schluter instructions call for a 1/4x3/16" v-notch, a 5/16x5/16" v-notch or the Schluter Ditra trowel (11/64x11/64" square notch).

I have not used your product, but I have used Laticrete 220 and CPB Marble & Granite medium bed mortars. I think they have too much "sand" in them to be suitable for attaching the Ditra to the subfloor. Will the MarblePro work? Perhaps, but I would rather see a standard modified thinset conforming to ANSI A118.11 used instead.

Brian

b82
12-21-2010, 11:54 AM
Brian I hope you are still here. I want to use the right mortar. This store does have versabond and now I wish I had gotten this instead. Which type of Versabond should I get????????????? Should I use this Merkrete for anything, or just take it back??

Thanks,

Brad

Brian in San Diego
12-21-2010, 12:08 PM
Brad,

I would use regular versabond (not the flex variety) in grey for sticking the Ditra to the subfloor. I would use the Mercrete 720 to set the travertine on the Ditra. I know this advice goes against the Schluter instructions for using only unmodified thin sets over Ditra, but I believe that due to the nature of the stone you should have no problem with curing. I would further advise not to walk on tiled areas for 48 hours. If you absolutely have to then I would recommend laying a sheet of Masonite over the entire area to be walked on.

Brian

Houston Remodeler
12-21-2010, 01:58 PM
For what its worth get the white versabond or white thinset of your choice as the grey may darken your travertine as it cures

b82
12-21-2010, 02:18 PM
Thanks Brian and Paul for your comments. That's what Ill do.

Brad

Brian in San Diego
12-21-2010, 03:35 PM
Paul, he already has the marble pro 720 in white. I really don't worry about what is going under the Ditra and grey is less expensive.

Houston Remodeler
12-21-2010, 10:38 PM
Oh, ok. Sometimes I get confused. :dunce:

b82
12-22-2010, 11:23 PM
I am about ready to start tiling (maybe) and want your input before i begin. I have attached a document from Onyx corp that makes the preformed shower pan I have in my b-room. Im NOT using the shower walls made by Onyx, only the shower pan. The walls will be travertine with 1/2in duroc and Hydroguard. Are the enclosed height and width recommendations for the shower pan applicable to Duroc and, if not, what would you suggest? Im not certain the figures are correct and talking to their rep I wasnt convinced he was either. As it stands now I have the Duroc above the shower pan 1/4 in. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Brad

b82
12-22-2010, 11:42 PM
http://www.onyxcollection.com/onyx-shower-installation-tutorial.html

Sorry here is the URL for the pic I'm referring to. It wasn't in my last post.

Brad

b82
12-28-2010, 09:35 AM
Do you recommend using multiple drywall screw when using large tiles on shower walls? Large as in 14x14. No Brian NO 8.80 yet, only 9.20. If you dont mind, I would like your input on my shower pan, time permitting. My questions are already in the last 2 posts.

Thanks

Brad

bbcamp
12-28-2010, 09:44 AM
Brad, does your larger tile weigh more per square foot than the smaller ones?

The gap between the Duroc and the flange on the receptor is fine, but I'd caulk it instead of leaving it empty.

Brian in San Diego
12-28-2010, 09:54 AM
Brad,

Here's the difference between what you are doing and what the drawing shows. The Onyx panels are the waterproofed surface, right? I believe what you will have to do is treat the base lip exactly as though it were a "normal" shower receptor. You will have to install your CBU so that you can apply your waterproofing membrane in such a fashion as any water that gets through the stone or grout will make it's way down the waterproofing and make it's way to the receptor and drain.

Installing the CBU in the proper fashion usually means shimming it out so it's outer edge is inside the lip of the receptor. There are a couple of different methods to waterproof that edge. With a liquid I think I would opt for some fabric and membrane.

If you start your tiling with the second course and install a ledger board you shouldn't need to use any screws to support your installation. The ledger will support it all well.

Brian

b82
01-22-2011, 02:14 PM
I have installed hydroguard on my shower walls and am almost ready to begin tiling. What type of thinset do you recommend for tile over the top of the hydroguard, modified or unmodified?? I'm putting 14" travertine on the walls and the floor.

Thanks,

Brad

Higher Standard Tile
01-22-2011, 02:50 PM
Think hydrogaurd is a merkrete product,they want a modified. Schluter is the only one I am aware of that requires unmodified.

b82
01-22-2011, 03:02 PM
Thank you Homza!!