Lets take the gloves off!!!!

[chip]

I have to ask.

What is wrong with the Tile Council of America.

Why is this organization of all aspects of the building industry, wood, gypsum, tile distributors, education, terrazzo, stone, setting materials, tile contractors, materials and methods, brick layers & allied craftsman and ISO committee members looked upon as some people in a lab with no idea what the real world is all about, and who are they to tell me how to my job.(blind leading the blind)

These people are brought in from all over North America and meet several times a year to make sure that the standards layed out in there publication are approved by the forum, and will provide the industry, which all of you are a big part of, with succesfull installations of tile and stone.

Yes there is some politics involved, green board for example, but what organization of the size and scope of this one will not have people and organizations, pushing for there own objectives.

Please help me understand the bitterness and contempt, that I percieve is out there amoung you.

"IT'S TIME TO RUMBLE!?!? NO, IT'S TIME TO VENT!!

Art Phenis

[Sponsored Links]

[John Bridge]

Okay, Art, but first of all, settle down -- take it easy.

You mentioned greenboard. Did you know that the TCA is largely responsible for the practice of building "sheetrock showers"? Did you know there once was a TCA "standard" for this? That's for starters.

Look at the membership of the TCA. Would you not say it is top-heavy with manufacturers/distributors?

Here's what happens. A product is manufactured, and the TCA comes up with a "standard" relating to that product. No products are rejected out of hand. The party line is that "all" products have their place and will work if manufacturers' directions are adhered to. The TCA "lab" can't put out derogatory info on a product without going against an important member.

My philosophy is, and always has been, does the new product perform at least as well as the old one? Can it accomplish the same thing with less labor and expense? Is it as GOOD? Or is it just there?

As you can guess, I have more to say, but I want to give you and everyone else a chance to speak.

[chip]

I am searching through my TCA manual and having a hard time finding examples of products being reccomended.

Mine shows methods of installations.

I will grant you that there are a couple of proprietary spec's, but by in large my copy is devoted to installation methods for ceramic tile in general.

Green board. I hear ya. I can't make sense of it either, except that dry wall was being used and the gypsum companies came out with a " water resistant " product that was better than dry wall.

Art

[kalford]

I suppose yall may have guessed that I'm a bit of a Rebel.
While I realize the need for standards and guidelines I also understand that they are just that.Minimum-standards,in my opinion,should be ecceeded, double or more,by any selfrespecting manufacturer or installer.


Labs are fine,real world is better.For all our advances in "modern" technology we remain in the dark ages.How many tile installations or for that matter,any structures,will last as long as the pyramids?


I'll "try" a product because tests indicate it is worthy.
I'll "use" a product because it performs in real world situations.

The TCA provides "guidelines". It's up to us to do it better.

[chip]

We need rebels, I'm a rebel or I wouldn't be here. It would be much easier for me to stand back and let the forces do as they see fit. But my intention is to learn, discuss and teach the proper methods of installation of the most beautifull product the flooring industry has to offer.

I don't find any suggestion in the hand book that the standards reccomended are "minimum standards".

I know it is only your opinion, but if I hadn't reread your post I would have believed that you found that to be true, in the hand book.

These methods are tried and true, not some hypothetical suggestions conjured up in the lab one night, by some Dr. Frankenstein.

Art

[kalford]

Art,
Not to change the subject but are you employed at the site of manufacture?.........r u whur thay make thet thar Bonsal?

The reason I ask is that I have relatives in Jacksonville,Parents,Grandmother,sister & nephew.
My parents have a rather large amount of tile they want me to install for them.Sometime in the future,probably next year,I hope to go down to do it.I was thinking that I would like to meet you and possibly tour the plant.Would that be possible?

[chip]

I'll be happy to set a tour of our plant in Jacksonville, If I can persuade my boss to let go up there I'll be there.

I live and work in the Miami area, and don't get to Jacksonville.

But I do look forward to the opportunity to meet you and get to know you.

Try to schedule your install around the 2nd week in May and take in the tile show in Orlando. The dates are May 7-10, 2002, it is free and the seminars are worth all your time and money to get there. Plan at "least" 2 days to see all the show.

Regards,

Art

[kalford]

Art,
I lived in Jax for 22 years.Where is that plant?

[chip]

6659 Highway Ave. Jacksonville.

I've never been there.

Let me know and I'll set it up.

Come on down!!!!!!!

take good care,

Art

[Bud Cline]

Keith,

Now I'm going to change the subject to ask if you know the name of the restaurant down at St. Augustine built out on a pier that has the little trap doors along the windows in the diningroom? You open them trap doors and feed bread to the saltwater catfish. The catfish fish swarm by the thousands down below. Kind of a pricey place!

[John Bridge]

Well, I'm not quite finished with the subject that was at hand here.

I have a copy of the TCA manual. It's rather brief and doesn't say a lot about anything, really.

However, if you talk to people who speak for the tile "industry," they'll tell you the standards are meant to be minimum requirements. I've had conversations with Dave Gobis about this, for one, and Michael Byrne says the same thing. Dave moderates the tile board at floorbiz.com and contributes to a bunch of discussions (including ours once in a while.) Mike Byrne is moderator of the JLC Online tile forum.

http://www.floorbiz.com/forums/MessagesList.asp?ForumID=21

http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/webbbs/tile/webbbs_config.pl

Dave deals mostly with civilians on his board, but MB deals with mostly pros. I would review some of the past posts on that board to get a feel for what I'm talking about.

Further, the TCA standards dictate the ANSI requirements. A-108 has to be taken into consideration when the TCA handbook is read.

As far as naming names is concerned, the TCA handbook does not do that, BUT look on the labels and packaging of most products intended for use with tile and stone. See if there is not at least a TCA seal on the product, if not a statement that is meets or excedes the standards set by the TCA.

Recapping the way it works, then, the TCA passes the product, and the product manufacterer (who is a member of TCA) publishes the favorable results.

Listen, though, this wouldn't be so bad if the TCA did not speak for the "industry." When I asked Dave G. about this once, he replied, "But John, the TCA IS the tile industry."

I happen to disagree with that.

None of this is to say that I harbor any ill will toward anyone connected to the TCA or anyone else for that matter. I consider both Dave G. and MB to be friends.

[kalford]

Yeah but I can't think of it.My exwife and I ate there after the wedding with her sister and brother-in-law.I didn't see the catfish though...long time ago.I used to drive to St. Augustine to go to the beach because you can't drive on it in Jax any more.Lot of seashells though.Hard to walk in places.

[Bud Cline]

John,

I am again going to agree with you about something.

In this day of personal politics and agendas, I would be hard pressed to believe that a developer of a product that also set on the board (so to speak) of the TCA when it came to making recommendations for the use of a product wouldn't have a vested interest in seeing to...........oh well you know.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in the TCA and most of what it prescribes, I have just grown so damned cynical over the years I hate myself for it. But hey I don't trust anybody anymore and I voted for Jeb's brother.

[John Bridge]

Geez, Bud, I voted for Dubya too, but I don't go around braggin' about it.

And quit agreeing with me so much. You're making me nervous :-)

[chip]

I have gone throught the TCA hand book again and still have yet to find what you guys are talking about.

Where is all this specifying of manufacturers proprietary products going on.

Please open your copies of the hand book to the 1st page, the people listed here are on the committees that make the recomendations for the standards of the installation procedures.

The companies listed in the back are members, who have paid to belong to this prestigious organization.

They may be making suggestions and or maybe out right demands. But the entire committee decides what is put in the hand book.

These standards have been created to make all of our jobs easier. Not to dictate.

I still have yet to hear anyone say that these standards are the minimum requirements. But if they are, the majority of the installations fall far below those minimums.

And if these standards were not in place what would you and I have to compare them to? Or for that matter, disagree about?

Art

[John Bridge]

Art,

We could disagree about beer and wimmin, politics and religion, and as my mom used to say, we could "argue about the price of tea in China."

Don't give up, Art. We old installers will get you educated eventually.

[Bud Cline]

flatile,

Re: your preceding post.

"ZACTLY"

John,

Don't let your head swell beyond control there big guy, I haven't read your book or Michael's for that matter and I ain't gonna.

I wouldn't want it to influence my own efforts someday. :)

[chip]

Please, educate me. Lord knows I need it.

But facts are facts. You have yet to make refference to the sections that are so darned product specific that it just rubs you the wrong way.

What is it really that bothers you so much about the TCA?

Art

[John Bridge]

Well, I'm at a loss. I could only repeat what I've already said. I have no great hatred for the Tile Council of America, nor for anyone associated with it. It's just that I do not recognize it as the supreme authority in matters pertaining to the setting/fixing of ceramic tile and stone.

The "research" that goes on at the TCA is product-driven, and not necessarily method driven. Many of the "standards" have not withstood the test of time. That every new product is acceptable (albeit with certain limitations) disturbs me. Shouldn't some products be UNacceptable? Where are the rejects?

In the end, I don't mind the TCA doing what it does, and I know some good comes out of it. It is not now, however, and it never has been, the "tile industry."

[kalford]

I couldn't have said it better or even as good John.

[Bud Cline]

I'm not at all bothered by the TCA. I subscribe to their suggested methods for the most part and am very glad they are there for us. The problem with any of those specifying organizations is that in most cases they spend all their money "preaching to the choir".

Everyone in Tile that gives a damn could subscribe to and practice their (TCA) methods but that doesn't stop the hacks out there. The hacks are the guys I have to compete with daily.

More time/money needs to be spent educating the consumer and retailer in most cases. If the consumer knew a little about what should be done based on the specifiers/manufacturers recomendations then ligitimate operators such as those of us here could practice our trade and earn a living without having to explain all the whys and wherefores over and over again to each new consumer that comes along. Even after that repeated exercise we are only to be beat-out by a much lower prices given by someone that tells the consumer "oh you don't need all that, we'll just put your tile over that OSB, it'll save you a lot of money, hell we do it all the time".

Again, I agree with John when he asks "Where are the failed products"? I wish Dave Gobis was here to join in so this doesn't sound like an attack. I also don't agree that the TCA "IS the tile industry". I do think the CTEF IS the TCA though. And there's nothing wrong with that either, I would like to attent the whole damned program some day, I could learn an awful lot there. But I have another question and that is; "Where does the TCA's CTEF get the materials they consume to teach with"?

[John Bridge]

Well, I guess I'll have to get Dave over here. His ears ought to really be burning by now.

[chip]

Very interesting, the idea of taking the standards to the masses. Maybe through the CTDA and Sufraces. I'll have to pass that idea along.

CTEF is the TCA? I don't understand. If it weren't for the latter the former wouldn't exist.

CTEF is still in my mind, a experiment in progress. I don't think any one knows if it will work or not.

The time and money that is required for those dedicated to the trade is certainly a detterent. Unfortunately these are necessary evils. But a hinderance that other trade schools don't contend with.

I personally believe that the entire flooring industry should work with the local community colleges, and develope a certified installation program. Believe me, the tile industry isn't the only area lacking in qualified installers.

There are those that will say " we can't afford that". I say we can't afford not to. Does any one truly believe that left as it is, it is going to get better?

What if a fraction of a percent of the sales of all related products were to go to education? Not only for installers, sales people (retail, wholesale and god knows manufacturers reps.), estimators, inspectors, specifiers etc.

Organizations such a Coverings & Surfaces could add a surcharge to their member exhibitors, to off set the costs.

Hey, I've always said if your going to dream, dream big!!!

Art

[Bud Cline]

If you have done any research over at Flooringinstaller.com you may have run across my attempts at this very thing. (Taking the standards to the masses (consumers).

I made a valiant attempt at lobbying for this project to be launched from the Flooringinstaller.com platform. I spent many hours discussing the merits and devising a plan only to fail miserably. I'm not sure I understand why. In fact kalford and flatfloor and DEREK & JACQUI were there and great supporters of mine.

Though I did get minimal and I think superficial backing from management I don't think they were earnest, nor their comments heartfelt. I then began to see Flooringinstaller.com as nothing more than a vehicle to sell flooring products thru the sister iFloors.com. Both websites are owned and operated by Steve Simonson whose principals I'm afraid I see as self serving.

When I get over my "mad", I may take yet another leap at it over there if they will allow it, but until then at least here we all know who supports this site and what is in it for him. Sites like this one are the best thing to happen to the buying public in a forever. I support this process wholeheartedly.

[kalford]

Bud,
I still believe in the cause and will lend my support again in the event it is needed.

[John Bridge]

You tryin' to say I don't make money off this site, fella? Well, you are correct, sir!

Oh by the way, I shot Dave G. an email first thing this morning. Told him we were all having a great time talking about him behind his back.

And I think Rob Z. will be back today. Rob is a graduate of the CTEF when Michael Byrne ran it.

And Dave G. does run regional programs around the country. If you can get a group together, they'll run a program for you.

[Edited by John Bridge on 06-11-2001 at 03:20 PM]