FT.Hood

[jvcstone]

I know John closed the earlier thread, and rightly so. I did come across this article on the huffpost that might be of interest to some.

I realize just the mention of the huffpost puts some off, but anyioone truly interested in expanding their knowledge and world view should at least give it a read.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kamran-pasha/a-muslim-soldiers-view-fr_b_348973.html

JVC

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[ceramictec]

here we go again.....:corn:

[jgleason]

Hi John,

A pretty decent article considering it is on the Huffington Post.

The way I see it, there are plenty of disturbed people out there in the world. Some of them latch on to religion and use it to further their own agenda or, in extreme cases, to justify the use of violence against other people.

History is replete with examples of barbarous behavior committed against innocent people using one religion or another as justification for their actions.

When the leadership of an organization allows itself to be aligned with actions it should be condemning then I think it only right that the organization should be held responsible.

The recent scandals surrounding the Catholic church over several of its priests preying upon children, mostly young boys, is a great example. The initial response from the church was not to condemn and clean house, rather it was to hush things up and try to sweep the whole thing under the rug.

While Islam is organized differently there are still apparently plenty of Imams in various mosques around the world that don't appear to be preaching about peace love and understanding. It is difficult for regular people to understand how wonderful Islam is when the perception is that supposed holy men in mosques seem so intolerant.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not tarring all Muslims with the same brush; but the perception that Islam has a propensity for violence is real.

I was quite encouraged to hear several high level statements from the Islamic community unequivocally condemn the recent action at Fort Hood.

[K_Tile]

My brother is a Captain in the Army stationed at Ft Hood. His office is next door to the shooting. He heard the gun fire but thought it was a training exercise. Until one of his soldiers came running into his office screaming, " Sir, Sir some is shooting...." He wouldn't go into further detail.

The upsetting part about this ordeal is one of his soldiers was just sent back early from his 2nd tour of duty. They brought him back early because of his "excellence" in tour of duty and to allow him to start OCS. Unfortunately he was one of the soldiers shot in the head, chest and stomach by one of his own!

He was killed by a coward who only wanted to play Army!

[John Bridge]

I certainly have no objection to your starting this thread, John. I think you and I are alike in our defense of free speech, even though that speech might not appeal to some. Where I leave democracy, though, and become a private business owner is when somebody steps over the line and violates the rules of this web site, duly posted in the FAQ. This Mud Box Forum is indeed a "free marketplace of ideas," but it is not a free-for-all for bigots, racists and other rabble.

Please continue. :)

[jjwq8]

I resemble that remark.
Outside now. Hand bags at 20 paces!
But seriously.....

"Major Nidal Malik Hasan is a murderer and has brought great shame upon every American Muslim in the armed forces." quoth the Huffington Post.

My only beef is the inclusion of the descriptor "Muslim".

Major Nidal Malik Hassan is a murderer and has brought great shame upon every American in the armed forces. Period.

Actually no.

Major Nidal Malik Hassan is a murderer and has brought great shame upon us all.

[jgleason]

I disagree with your last post Jeremy. I don't see how shame for nidal's actions can or should be applied to everyone.

His actions are his alone.

Should we all feel shame whenever a mass murder is committed?

[jjwq8]

Whether we like to admit it or not, such heinous behavior and deeds shame all humanity

[jgleason]

Sorry, I find it difficult to muster shame for the actions of any of the several billion people on the planet that I do not know.

Now, if this person had been a family member, firend, someone in my community then I would see your point.

In fact, the Huff Post had it right the first time(imho). Nidal brought shame upon his fellow American Muslim soldiers.

[jjwq8]

we will simply have to disagree on this :D

[jgleason]

Yep, agree to disagree is good sometimes. :D At least we disagree civilly.

[jjwq8]

it's the end of my working day so civility is a real pain :D

[Davestone]

I think Jeremy is right in that a lot of things are to be considered.Will the Army wiggle out of responsibility by saying it was an irrational spur of the moment act?How about the red flags,why was the civilian police there and no MP's,i find that strange.Who knew what and when?And i agree that he is just a murderer,found his reason and did it.:bow:

[deepwater]

What I see happening in the future.

They will attack us from within and this will become more common. Muslim extremist will join U.S. Military get behind some heavy artillery and turn it on our troops. Then our soldiers loose faith and trust in each other. God forbid one joins the airforce and gets in a fighter jet loaded with bombs.

[jgleason]

Deepwaterdave -

The other thread was closed due to some particularly egregious comments you posted. Please take the high road here and don't go down that path again. :shades:

There are plenty of American Muslims serving in our military today. Some are actually fighter pilots too.

[deepwater]

I said "Muslim extremist" big differance there. Not taking about the "Peaceful Muslims"

Kinda like there are "Good Tile Installers" and there are "Bad Tile Installers"

Dont be so tender

[jgleason]

Not tender at all Dave. You are the one on thin ice. Just trying to help you understand that so you don't go shooting yourself in the foot again.

[sandbagger]

"Major Nidal Malik Hasan is a murderer and has brought great shame upon every American Muslim in the armed forces." quoth the Huffington Post.

My only beef is the inclusion of the descriptor "Muslim".Hasan's well-established actions leading up to and during the massacre clearly bring into view his personal views of Islam. sorry, jeremy, life isn't always fair in these matters. Like it or not, the Muslim community has been under a microscope since 9/11. That's what happens in wars.

Every once in awhile the HuffPo slips up and gets it right. In this case, however, I believe the most important point of the piece was unintended. "Richard" is the problem here."

In fact, it appears that there were several "Richards" in this picture. That is, people who saw suspect actions/behaviors and failed to address them according to their obligation as members of the military.

Bear with me.... As someone who's spent 30+ years in the defense industry, I can tell you this without hesitation - Richard screwed up bigtime. When you enter the world of the DoD, the rules change. If I want to get/keep my clearance (and my job), there are rules that many of you may not like or agree with. Obviously I have to watch my own behavior. I am even required to self-report certain "adverse" behaviors - like getting a DUI. But here's the kicker - I am required to report certain behaviors if I notice them in my co-workers. Simple things like suddenly living much better than his salary should allow. Failure to do so can get me an as much trouble as the violator.

Unfortunately, "Richard" is the bigger problem - long term - for the Muslim community. Until the Richards of the Muslim world do a better job of policing their own, building trust is going to be a very uphill battle.

[jvcstone]

Seems to me that what Art refers to as the problem is the problem in every case of mass killers. Religion and/or ethnicity have nothing to do with it- Hasan's being a Muslim is just incidental.

Whether it is high school kids rampaging against their classmates, salesmen storming elementary schools, postoffice employees going "postal", or any other instance of someone going off and killing a lot of people with whom they have daily contact--they all exhibit signs that something is going wrong within their thought processes -- their concept of reality becomes skewed and the clues are there. So, in essence, just as those closest to any mass killer who felt in retrospect like something might be wrong, Richard, and others in Hasan's Muslim community do share in the responsibility.

But, Art, your statement "That's what happens in wars" indicates to me that you are a reflection of Major Hasan's fundamental belief -- that our adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan are a religious war on Islam. It is something he most likely heard everyday in his work with mentally and emotionally wounded vets, and was surrounded with in the work environment he was trying to leave.

So is that (crusade) what we are doing or not, and if not, why do so many people speak as if it is. The vast majority of Muslims world wide care no more for those radicalizing the teachings of their religion than most Christians care for those evangelicals who preach violence against those they see as sinners. No religious community is immune from that sort of thing, and to blame Islam for this means fundamental Christianity is to blame for the mass killing at a Unitarian church, or a doctor being gunned down in a Presbyterian church, or the mass killing of an off beat (read non mainstream) Christian sect in Waco Texas, or the mass kidnapping of children from a Morman community in west Texas.

The crux of the matter is that a criminal act by a hand full of radical muslims was turned into something much more than that by the previous administration. Instead of dealing with it in a constitutional manner (ie. issuing letters of mark and reprisal -- which would essentially be sending in a black ops unit to take out the bad guys) the Bush/Cheney crowd used 9-11 as an excuse to lead our country on a course of action that is and will continue to have negative results for us. And because of that decision, far too many people in this country have, like several here, decided that a religion that they have no understanding of (other than the crap spewed from the mouths of TV's talking heads) is our enemy.

If that is what happens in war, then it is another damn good reason to never, ever, enter into war in such a cavalier manner as we did this one (or is it two)

JVC

[HotinOKC]

Wow Art, I've been working for the DoD for a long time now too and never knew we were "required" to do anything? What is this regulation?

[sandbagger]

Mark - if you don't know about the rules for "adverse behavior" then you either don't work in a DoD environment or are seriously in need of a security refresher. :shrug:

[HotinOKC]

Art,

Please tell me where it is REQUIRED to tell, not "should" tell. There is a difference. Thanks.

[sandbagger]

Religion and/or ethnicity have nothing to do with it- Hasan's being a Muslim is just incidental. sorry, John, not only does the evidence clearly lead us to believe otherwise, you even acknowledge as much later in you same post. ...indicates to me that you are a reflection of Major Hasan's fundamental belief -- that our adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan are a religious war on Islam. you can't have it both ways, John. If his actions were a reflection of his "fundamental beliefs," well...... The crux of the matter is that a criminal act by a hand full of radical muslims was turned into something much more than that by the previous administration.well, John, last time I checked your "handful of radical Muslims" were at the heart of something like 22 of the top 25 "hotspots" in the world. Where should we send those "black ops" guys first? :scratch:

[jvcstone]

I think you missed my point Art, and that's too bad. The point was and is that the nature of the stressor is incidental--from what I've read, almost every incident of this nature could have been prevented had those close to and aware of the mental/emotional personality change in the person interceded in some way. In this case it was someone who in addition to feeling personally attacked and embarrassed for his religious belief, felt that the very organization he worked for was on a mission to destroy his religion. The shooters at Columbine were subjugated to much the same stressors except it was something other than their religious belief that they felt was under attack. In either case, the killers give a multitude of signals that were ignored by those closest to them well before pulling the trigger.

If you want to make some sort of special "see, those Muslims can't be trusted" issue out of this , so be it. But I still say that that attitude prevents you and all those others who see it that way from ever seeing and addressing the underlying causes and events that lead up to this sort of end result. I doubt that Major Hasan joined the Army planning to martyr himself as a jihadist 10-12 years down the line any more than those two boys in Colorado entered Highschool with their future fixed in their minds. As I mentioned before, we all should be a lot more worried about the Military's current recruiting practices amongst urban gang bangers than the fact that a lot of non-christian men and women have chosen to serve.

Personally, I think the biggest problem in the world is caused by people who insist on seeing the differences between themselves and other people rather than focusing on the similarities. Creates trouble where ever and when ever it becomes the driving force --which is what the radical right in this country is trying to do to Islam. Whenever we attack that which we don't understand, or is different in some way, it is because deep down we question and fear just who or what we really are.

JVC

Oh, those black op units should have been sent out back in sept 2001. They are not going to be found in either Iraq nor Afghanistan, if they even still exist today. Ask your self why Bush didn't give the go order when a Delta unit had OBL pinned down near Tora Bora and could have easily taken him in late 01. Could it be that he was worth more to the administration alive and on the loose than captured or dead. Obviously by that time any power he might have had had been effectively neutralized. but a boogie man is always needed to keep the masses afraid and easily manipulated.

[ob1kanobee]

From what I could find under 10 U.S.C. 1102 and DoD Directive 6040.37 the wording is "encourage" the reporting of adverse behavior. Couldn't find where it said "shall" report adverse behavior.

In most of these documents you won't see the word "required" it is almost always "shall".

BIG difference between "should" and "shall"..................

[ceramictec]

probably not related, but what a coincidence:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091108/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_fort_hood_muslims

[sandbagger]

If you want to make some sort of special "see, those Muslims can't be trusted" issue out of this , so be it. John, please don't put words in my mouth; hard to have a reasoned discussion when you do that. ;)

I never made any such statement or inference. While we all know your feelings about how we got into this war, it's irrelevant. We ARE at war, and wars are ugly in many ways beyond the battlefield. It's human nature to wonder just who you can trust - and who you can't. It happens in every war.

We tend to forget that radical Islam is waging a war on two fronts - Western civilization and moderate Islam. I believe that attacks such as Ft Hood are really aimed more at that 2nd front. Think about it. The leaders of radical Islam know that they cannot win a direct conflict with the West. So they have invested a lot of energy in recruiting the moderates to their cause. They make no secret that they think the best way to do that is to make the moderates believe that the fight is against ALL of Islam; a war of religion.

Attacks such as Hasan's are specifically designed to create doubt about Muslims as a group. The goal is to create enough suspicion to drive a wedge between the moderates and their non-Muslim friends and neighbors. It is the radical Muslims who are trying to create the "see, those Muslims can't be trusted" environment. If we (and I include moderate Muslims) don't accept that this is going on, we are poorly-equipped to deal with it.

The problem is I'm not sure the moderates of Islam get it. You can't fight the seeds of prejudice with lawsuits about profiling. And you can't sit on your heels like Richard because you don't think you can turn on a fellow Muslim. His "fellow Muslims" are certainly turning on him. :nod:

[jjwq8]

Ceramictec's link simply says that Hasan is now guilty by association. So much for due process.
There is no evidence that Hasan is a jihadist as mentioned and there is no evidence at this time that Hasan was in any way radicalized by another person acting with the deliberate intent of changing his views or mindset.
Until there is such incontrovertible evidence all such references are mischievous

[kate42]

It is most unfortunate that he was a "Muslim". IMHO just another way to distrust them. Not good.
As I see it it, it was another tragic episode in this country. Just because he was a Muslim does not mean it was a plot against this country. Prove me wrong.

Whether it is high school kids rampaging against their classmates, salesmen storming elementary schools, postoffice employees going "postal", or any other instance of someone going off and killing a lot of people with whom they have daily contact--they all exhibit signs that something is going wrong within their thought processes --
There have been too many other instances over the years of other mass shootings by people who were not of Muslim ethnicity. What race of people do we blame these murders on?
Average, everyday Muslims want the same freedoms as we do. Who are we? I believe it’s you and me.
Years ago (in the middle 80’s), before “Muslim“ became a person (or a group of people) to be weary of, my supervisor, also my best friend, was a Muslim. We went to lunch together almost everyday. He was the nicest person in my office. I learned a lot about Muslims from him as he learned about my culture. I believe he represents the true Muslim, not fanatical, just another human being trying to survive, like I’m trying to do.
You cannot condemn a community of people for the actions of one.

[MudMaker]

Lotsa info coming out Kate about his radical inclinations and his connections to radical Islamists.. :suspect:

[ceramictec]

Lotsa info coming out Kate about his radical inclinations and his connections to radical Islamists.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091110/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_fort_hood_shooting

[ob1kanobee]

Sounds to me like we are on the path the Bible talks about where religion will be abolished by governments, nations, people

First it is gonna start with these Muslims and work its way through :stirpot:

[MudMaker]

But first the Muslims have to take over... to proceed with the bible's prophecy.. Long way to go.....

[ob1kanobee]

MM the wild beast (united nations) takes over the harlot (religion)

OK back to FT. Hood (sorry for the interuption).................

[java]

Ceramictec's link simply says that Hasan is now guilty by association. So much for due process.
There is no evidence that Hasan is a jihadist as mentioned and there is no evidence at this time that Hasan was in any way radicalized by another person acting with the deliberate intent of changing his views or mindset.
Until there is such incontrovertible evidence all such references are mischievous

It did not say he was guilty by association. It was just a bit of news. Would you have rather the story not be reported? May not be anything but a coincidence but there may be a lot more.
It is a fair piece of investigative journalism. And now other journalist will investigate the same thing and more facts will show up. Hopefully right?
And I only mention any of this because you seem to find a bias in the piece.? Where? It even ended with cool heads calling for a reasoned response.

Quote for article > The London Telegraph first reported the potential link between Hasan and the mosque.

Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey said Sunday it's important for the country not to get caught up in speculation about Hasan's Muslim faith, and he has instructed his commanders to be on the lookout for anti-Muslim reaction to the killings at the Texas post.

He says focusing on the Islamic roots of the suspected shooter could "heighten the backlash" against all Muslims in the military.

Casey says diversity in the military "gives us strength."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for my non PC thoughts.

We are at war. At least the people we are fighting believe that. And they got us. Yep, Hasan is a turn coat and scored a hit for the people we are at war with. You can say he went nuts or was crazy or whatever you want and try to understand his mental state or better, the reason for his mental state but I say BS. What he did was become a traitor and fill his head with the ideas and goals of the enemy. When he got the chance he landed a blow against us for the same enemy.

We are at war with Muslims and it's time we start focusing more on who's doing what within our country. And in the military. Not fair you say? Why? When I was in the army I couldn't shave my head completely smooth. Lot's of the black guys did it. A few of the Latinos did. Hell, even my good friend Yussre (a muslim from Tunisia ) shaved his once I think. But not the white guys. Said it made us look like skin-heads. I knew a few white guys who shaved their heads and guess what happened? Full blown investigations. Every tattoo on their body was closely examined for any racial meanings, all their friends were asked to make statements, they were taken off any security details, and psychologist made studies and reports. Never once was anyone found guilty of alterer motives or being a racist. (We have a saying 'We are all green in the Army':D)

My point?, we all joked about it. And when I say we I mean all of us. Black white, yellow purple. The black guys would be shaving heads and trimming beards( Ya black guys get to have beards in the army too.)getting ready for Fri. nite and the white guys who looked good with shaved heads and wanted to couldn't and the black guys would joke about how the Army loved them more. .............oh ya, my point....sorry about rambling......my point is we understood the rule and why it was in place. Unfair, you bet, but it stifled an issue that got in the way of bigger things. Like the Army's main goal of defense of the country. Am I saying no Muslims in the military? Not at all. But keeping closer tabs on them at this time only makes sense.

A lot of people seem ready to shift blame or over look facts. Want to feel guilty for something but that's only gona blind us to another sucker blow. If I'm I gona feel guilty for something I would rather feel guilty for shaking down a few American Muslims and finding everything checks out over not looking the facts in the face and more Americans getting killed.

[Davestone]

It is beyond me why people can't seem to see the obvious.:bow:

[John Bridge]

I would rather feel guilty for shaking down a few American Muslims and finding everything checks out over not looking the facts in the face and more Americans getting killed.

Have a look at that and notice both groups referenced are Americans. If you allow the government to "shake down" even one American without due process you in effect authorize it to shake down any other American, including you.

Lots of us served in the military, and yes, it was seldom fair, but we got through it, and some of us thrived in it. And there have always been racial tensions within the armed services. My best friend in Viet Nam, for example, was a black man, but there were always allegations that one group or another was being treated unfairly.

I agree with you that we have to be vigilant, and I think we're working at that pretty well. But at all cost we cannot give up any more of our rights. Foremost among them is the right to be left alone -- to live our lives in peace no matter what our color and no matter what our religion.

This is not a question of political correctness. It's way more important than that. :)

[MudMaker]

I agree with you that we have to be vigilant, and I think we're working at that pretty well.
Obviously not John.. This is a very different world we live in now than the one you and I have known.. :usflag:

[John Bridge]

Nothing is obvious to me. :) Being a fence rider when it comes to politics I have the advantage of sitting back and trying to take it all in. Nothing is obvious. :)

[jgleason]

Hindsight is always 20/20 but I'm pretty sure that this slide presentation that Hasan gave a while back should have raised enough red flags and warning bells but somehow did not.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2009/11/10/GA2009111000920.html

The very odd thing about this is that it was supposed to be a presentation of a medical topic of his choosing at the end of his residency program. Seems pretty out of place to me.

[MudMaker]

The thing I keep wonderin bout is "This is a VOLUNTARY military".. What part of voluntary does he not understand??? He wanted a medical education paid for by the guvmn't but didn't think he should have be deployed?? :confused:

[sandbagger]

every once in awhile John McCain gets it right. Arizona Senator John McCain says the Fort Hood shootings are an act of terror. And McCain says political correctness should not get in the way of national security. :tup2:

http://www.fox41.com/global/story.asp?s=11484879

[MudMaker]

Nother thing... who in their right mind could defend such an act?? How can you possibly get in front of your Military Peers and defend his actions?? Misunderstood?? Insane?? Troubled?? I couldn't defend any of those in a court of law..

[MudMaker]

He also served in the ROTC as an undergraduate at Virginia Tech University in Blacksburg. He received a bachelor's degree in biochemistry there in 1997.

Now this just adds icing to the cake - He attended my Alma mater and went through ROTC just like I did.. What a pisser.. The Commandant down there must be reeling...:shake:

[John Bridge]

Yeah, but you're an InjunEar. You can be excused. :D

[MudMaker]

Hows that graduation quote go?? "Four years ago I culdn't even spel Injunear and now I are one" :D
Still a pisser that he went to Va. Tech...

[John Bridge]

Frank Woeste, the guy who writes the technical articles (with Peter Nielsen) on floor curvature, etc. is the head of the wood engineering department at guess where -- Virginia Tech. :)

You can find some of his stuff in the Liberry.

Now, back to the topic. ;)

[jgleason]

Laz - I removed your last post, not that I disagreed with it just that we'd much rather hear your own opinion than that of a forwarded, copied, passsed around chain mail style post.

I can surmise you didn't have a link to it, just another viral type of email post making the rounds.

[sandbagger]

and the debate continues as to whether this was a "terrorist" act. Or more specifically, an Islamic (Muslim) terrorist. Was it? Or was it just the horrific act of some nut who happened to be Muslim?

so here's the question, and it's a serious one. At what point do we make the "official" determination Hasan was a Muslim terrorist - or not? What is the mechanism? (Please don't say it's the PC types in the State Dept.) Do we have to wait until Hasan's trial? Do we put that question to the jury as part of the deliberations (and verdict)?

And what do we do in the meantime? It could take years for this trial to conclude.

As Shakespeare said, "A rose by any other name...." Well, is this a "rose" or not? And who gets to decide? :shrug:

[MudMaker]

His act was that of a Terrorist.. Does that make him a terrorist? Yes
He premeditated his acts of violence. He calculated them and acted on them. Yes, he is a homegrown Islamic terrorist... :devil2:

[jgleason]

Hi Art,

My own opinion, based on the information reported in the media - this was an act of domestic terrorism by an American Islamist Terrorist.

Plain as the nose on your face.

[ddmoit]

The only thing I know for certain about the Fort Hood incident is that I don't know what really happened, and I have no faith in the veracity of the official version we have been told.

[java]

And what do we do in the meantime? It could take years for this trial to conclude.

Military justice is much swifter than civilian justice.

I give this guy two more years of using oxygen at the most.

[jgleason]

Certain facts are known now Dan. People did actually get shot and died. We have heard from some of the folks that were on site.

Not sure exactly what part of the official version you are doubting, care to shed some light?

[MudMaker]

It appears that Hasan is now paralyzed from the waist down.. How do you think this will affect the upcoming circus? :D For me, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy... ;)

[sandbagger]

so answer my question, Dan - when/how do we decide?

I'm not talking about the 100% "we" as certain folks in this country undoubtedly agree with his actions (don't get testy out there, no ref to JB Forums!). I'm talking about the collective "we" as a nation. I maintain that it is a critical decision as it will drive us to certain policies and actions one way or t'other. Like what does the army (navy, AF, Marines) do the next time a member of the service gives a "briefing" on Islam like the one Hasan gave to his fellow doctors? :shrug:

[ceramictec]

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan the Army psychiatrist charged with killing 13 people in a shooting spree at Fort Hood made or accepted wire transfers with Pakistan, a country wracked by Muslim extremist violence, and also had communications with Pakistan.

[ddmoit]

Yeah, I know people were shot and killed. I don't know how, or by whom, or by how many. The official version is so different than the original early reports. Plus, I have no faith in the government whatsoever to tell us the truth.

As for whether this was terrorism or not, why is the answer to that so important? I doubt it matters much to the victims and their families. Killing those people was wrong; I don't care what the motivation was.

[jgleason]

I don't know how, or by whom, or by how many.

You're right early media reports were not accurate. Why? Because they engaged, as usual, in speculation.

I'm sure more of the facts will be forthcoming from the many people that were actually there. It appears from the latest eyewitness accounts that the shooting was done by Hasan and he alone is responsible for the death and injury to the people that were there.

As for whether this was terrorism or not, why is the answer to that so important?

It only matters if you intend to develop policies and procedures to help prevent it in the future. Art put it best here:

I maintain that it is a critical decision as it will drive us to certain policies and actions one way or t'other. Like what does the army (navy, AF, Marines) do the next time a member of the service gives a "briefing" on Islam like the one Hasan gave to his fellow doctors?

[ddmoit]

I still don't see the need for the politically charged label. If someone is behaving in a manner that suggests they may become dangerous, take appropriate action.

If the stories about Hasan's employment history are to be believed, our government employees failed miserably - a tale of ass-coverage and buck-passing if there ever was one. Surely it cannot be excused because they were unable to label him a terrorist.

[jgleason]

Whether the label is politically charged or not shouldn't make any difference. Call it like it is. Now, in the first few days I think it would have been inappropriate to jump to the conclusion and label the guy a terrorist just because he is a Muslim and shot people.

It is his pattern of behavior and actions leading up to the shooting that have tipped the scales and why I feel perfectly comfortable in describing him as an American Islamist Terrorist and a Traitor.

I see nothing wrong in labelling him as such. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then call it a duck.

If the stories about Hasan's employment history are to be believed, our government employees failed miserably - a tale of ass-coverage and buck-passing if there ever was one. Surely it cannot be excused because they were unable to label him a terrorist.

Our government employees failed miserably, I can agree with that easily enough.

It wasn't because they were unable to label him a terrorist though. It appears as if Hasan's actions weren't taken seriously enough because to look too closely at his actions or raise questions about him would have been considered somehow discriminatory and insensitive towards him.

Political correctness was the problem here.

[Davestone]

Now you're gettin there Joe.And i assure you nothing will change,under this admin.

[ob1kanobee]

Unfortunately or maybe fortunately I haven't paid much attention to this story as I have cut back on how much "news" intake I am allowing myself to watch :D

I do think it is wrong though to bring anyone's religion into any kind of title/label in the same sentence as traitor and such, unless it just happens to be like some small cult like the Branch Davidian or something.

However that is not going to happen so I'm not gonna get my knickers in a knot over it as the Bible predicted this sort of thing anyway. I still think it is wrong and one day it might just be your religion (if you have one or claim to be of one or perhaps become a believer in one).

Too much labeling going around if you ask me and that is very dangerous!

[jjwq8]

From the comfort of my very distant armchair may i simply make the observation that the vast majority of contributors claiming Islamic Terrorism at work are falling into the very same conspiracy sink-hole that dogs so much of life here in the Arab states.
Every tiny thing that happens is a Zionist Plot. Folks have gotten so damn used to blaming Israel for everything that it has become second nature to do that first and worry about the truth later.
I correspond with Pakistan and i make money transfers to countries where "charities" of dubious legitimacy exist. Simply referencing such tenuous links to bad guys is quite frankly ridiculous in the extreme.
Hasan is an American and is a Moslem. that is the extent of the conspiracy.
Has anyone theorized a conspiracy for the mass murdering rapist whose story emerged at the same time? Didn't he kill at least 6 and rape others? Who radicalized him?

[John Bridge]

Jeremy, let's start another cold war with the Russians. Everybody used to be able to blame them for everything from acid rain to crab lice. It focused the world, and we all got along better. Everything became a Communist plot. ;)


What if the guy had been a Catholic? We've got millions of them right here in the country he could have conspired with. And hell, he might even have communicated with the Vatican, a foreign country. Would that make him an American Catholic terrorist or traitor, or would he just be a loony toony mass murderer?

Or what if he were a Jew? The Zionist plot angle could then kick in. :)

I side with Dan. Very little accurate information ever comes from government sources, which include the U.S. Army, the FBI and the rest. I spent ten years in the army. I understand the terms "CYA" and damage control. That is priority one.

The fact that he will be tried by the military foreshadows the likelihood of ever bringing this mess to light.

[java]

Can't use labels?

Hassan liked to use them.

[ob1kanobee]

Jason, I don't see any labels there :shrug:

Far as I can tell doesn't say anything about Islamist anything there..................

[jgleason]

Ben,

SoA = Soldier of Allah

And I thought he was a Soldier of America. :rolleyes:

BTW - I am not on a witch hunt and I don't think there needs to be any purge of Muslims in the military, or anywhere else. Simply quit ignoring the warning signs that you might have someone mentally disturbed in your ranks. Intervene when necessary. From all of the warning signs in this guys past it is painfully apparent that something should have been done.

[LadyGodiva]

Wasn't there warning signs too before the Columbine shootings?

I don't understand why these "signs" are ignored.

[HotinOKC]

LG,

They are ignored because the weak minded people are afraid of the repercussions. The Al Sharpton's and the civil rights groups would start screaming and crying as soon as we start having concerns with certain people of the minority. We tell the authorities that a certain individual might do something to harm people, and then we will be labeled as racist.

[sandbagger]

I suppose I should learn to expect it, but it still amazes my when people try to make a connection of something like Columbine - a high school school shooting - with Ft Hood. Oh, that's right, both were accomplished with guns. :bang: