EXPERIENCE - Does it have REAL Value

[tileguytodd]

Some of you have been in this trade many years ( JOHN for example is like CRO MAGNON Tileguy ;) )

Some, just a few years..........

Some would say that Practical experience has REAL Value, other younger people would argue experience of old has no bearing on The building methods of today and the knowledge required for NEW Techniques in Tile setting.

SO, Lets hear it......What is YOUR View on EXPERIENCE as a TANGIBLE VALUE

Would YOU pay more to get an Installer or a plumber or a Roofer with YEARS of Experience or..............Is the Value of experience secondary to the value of saving a dollar or 2?

In the world of EMPLOYEE/EMPLOYER as People age and gain in experience they are compensated more in several ways
Monetary
Paid time off......etc

In the world of the TRADES, we see youth bidding LOW at times just to get work ( some would call them Whores in the market but most of us remember our first tough years breaking in to a market so is this really the case )
There are also the Hacks out there, those who are not in it for the trade and the satisfaction that goes with doing a job well........they will cut corners and do whatever it takes to get the dollars and KEEP as much as they can.
( an example can be found in the advice forum where an installer sells an EPOXY grout job but uses a standard modified grout)

So chime in..whats your take on EXPERIENCE and where does it Lay on YOUR list of Priorities :)

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[dgunnels]

There is certainly value to experience and one should never forget that it requires time to build a reputation. On the other hand if the 'more experienced' contractor is not open to new methods/ideas then it can be a detriment. For example, many home owners on the forums have complained about contractors who wouldn't even consider working with new products like Kerdi or Ditra. I suppose as in many cases the sword cuts both ways. In addition, I think these examples can be applied to many professions, not just tiling.

[ob1kanobee]

I agree with Neesie.

I myself tend to take a look at a companies history such as how long they have been in business. If I'm investing a good chunk of change into a project I want a company that has been around for a while.

If I'm not spending much it doesn't bother me so much to go with the cheaper less expensive guy, experienced or not who maybe works for himself.

I had a few jobs I was losing to bigger companies because "what if something happened to me" came up a lot from some of the big fish. I got smart and when I could not overcome that objection, as much as the person in charge of the project would like for me to do the job, I would then offer to to the job through a company that had been in business for many years and they would just get a percentage off the job. It was really selling warranty more than anything. I still made out very well and eventually captured repeat business with them on my own or through my small company with only a couple of years behind it.

I believe experience has some degree to do with a lot of things and sometimes it doesn't.

As one fellow I know in the insurance business told me once after I told him I wish I had the knowledge in his head of the insurance business, he said "it isn't how much you know Ben, it is how much you care".

I see that saying hold true so many times.

I have got many a tile jobs and insurance sales by genuine sincerity with a little knowledge of course.

Good topic though!

[Art in Stone]

Good topic indeed.

[Saldibs]

"what if something happened to me" came up a lot from some of the big fish
I hear that once in a while, but the big company thing can cut both ways as well. I usually argue that the guy working for the big company has no personal stake in the outcome of the work that he is doing, it's just a job to him, big companies can fail just as easily as a small one and that I have been in business for twenty years and am here to stay. It's just one argument that can be put forth.

[LadyGodiva]

Nessie is right. When I asked my tile contractor who has been in the business for 20 years about using Kerdi he looked annoyed, after all, he's been laying tiles for 20 years! He even said that he never had a customer ask any questions. I personally prefer someone with experience for obvious reasons, but they can get really stuck in the mud (hehe) and not want to try anything new or different.

[MudMaker]

but they can get really stuck in the mud (hehe) and not want to try anything new or different.

New and different may be good for Politics, and quite fashionable in certain circles, but quite often the new stuff STILL has to be warranted just as the old stuff you've been working with for years.. A lot of times the setter will go with what has been proven over time to work for him.. Many out there have had to go back and re-do an installation. Do that once or twice and your opinion on "NEW" takes a whole different perspective.... ;)
Sometimes there is nothing comparable to experience. It is this experience, ability to sell, and satisfied customer base that makes a good tile setter..

[John Bridge]

There is no substitute for experience, but as has been said by others here, the experienced tile setter should always be open to new ideas (just as everyone should always be open to new ideas). :)

I have tried to take what's best from the old and the new. Some things are intuitive irrespective of the experience factor. For example, I much prefer the newer idea of waterproofing showers from the inside instead of from the outside or not at all. Just makes sense to me. But I suppose experience helps form my judgment. ;)

[ob1kanobee]

MM makes a great point, ability to sell and negotiate instead of caving in. You can usually get just about anything if you can come to the table with terms.

I know setters who can do it all with the exception of selling themselves to be hired by a good company or to start there own business. They just can't deal with people AT ALL...........

[K_Tile]

It only takes one guy with experience to run a job. But it takes a crew of individuals that care about what they are doing to get it done.

Sometimes experience brings the lack of motivation.

People with the ability to learn and follow direction out weight experience in my book.

[MakenaTile]

Its interesting how some really old timers have no ability what so ever. Time can't make up for ability. Hired 6 two to three man crews for a big job I landed- my own having the least experience. 2 crews claimed to have 25 and 23 years experience. It was hard for me to complain about the job they were doing because they were "pro" I had 1 year experience. But it was my job- so I had to. I swear to god- they could not even set 8 18x18 travertine on a pool deck without going up hill towards the pool. I had them rip it out 3 times! finally I let them go. They boasted the loudest about how good they were when I hired them. I see that a lot- the one who brag about how good they are- usually aren't good at all.

I have issues with bidding- money. really need to find a way past it- I prefer others to set up my mural jobs- ask for what its really worth. I just like making them. I have no problem bidding tile jobs tho. Just murals.

When I learned the trade- I didn't think my x's logic was right- even tho he was trained by "the tile shop" or whoever those guys are. I got several books on the subject and spent weeks on the computer on sights like this learning everything there was to know. I tried to tell my x that he was doing some things wrong- or that there were better ways that now exist- he wouldn't listen to one word. Not until he went to take his license. He passed the legal but failed the tile section. next thing I know- I see one of the same books I had in his truck. He rejected all my ideas to my face- but weeks later I'd catch his crew all using them. Like using the gloved palm of your hand to push the bulk of wall grout on/in- then finishing with a trowel. much less ends up on the ground and lines are filled instantly. No working it in endlessly.

Now his whole crew does it. Grout floors in half the time this way. I raced another guy on that same pool deck - my combo of palm pushing and trowel against his out of the book method. I fiinished a full hour before him.

One guy I set a few jobs with could set an entire floor without a sponge- no mud on the side walls of his bucket. no tiles adjusted- never even used a level- didn't need to. he was fast as well. Now- 5 years later- he sucks. Go figure

[Deckert]

Experience measured in years alone can be misleading. A persons experience could consist of thirty years of mediocrity. There are folks out there with 30 years experience building mastic on greenboard showers. Another person might only have 3, 5, 10 years experience, but have a broader knowledge of their trade than someone who has only done a limited number of tasks for a long time.

The experience also has to be applicable to the task at hand. Some guys have set miles and miles of tile on slab. Doesn't mean his experience is applicable to building a curbless shower or a tiled fountain or a tiled deck over a living room, or whatever.

[muskymike]

I've been setting tile fer 20 years and I still suck. :D

[MudMaker]

I've been setting tile fer 20 years and I still suck.


Spoken as the true craftsman that you are!!! :zztop:

[K_Tile]

I've been setting tile fer 20 years and I still suck.

You hobbyist :)

[John K]

Brannigan,

Your point is spot on! As an add on to his point. There have been guys setting for 20 or 30 yrs, that never had to deal with the sh*t that the manufacturers ( tile) and designers, throw at us now! So with that said. We all may have limited experience in certain areas.

Look at the "crazy design" thread. How many old timers delt with that stuff?:bow:

[Davestone]

When i was half this age when people hired me they asked a million questions and wanted me to do it cheap.Now they ask a question, and say, "well you've been doing it forever you must know what you're doing," and want it done cheap.:D But i feel much better now that i actually know what i'm doing minus the young bravado.:bow:I was never afraid of taking on more than i knew how to do, then i would ask around or lay awake trying to figure out how to do it.There was no internet back then.

[John Bridge]

Well, some of you folks are making experience sound like a bad thing, and that surely isn't the case. It's just that experience shouldn't be the sole qualifier. Technical knowledge should be considered, along with attitude, appearance, good strong references, etc. You should not discount experience just because experienced people can screw up like everybody else. Experience has value. Take Musky Mike, for instance. :D

[Davy]

Yep, experience has value. Years ago, everything was just 4 1/4. Then they decided to jaz it up with a border. Now, their imagination runs wild. But, experience helps when designs has to be figured out. I know young, less experienced guys that would be lost and possibly screw up a design. :)

[deepwater]

Im 30 and grew up in the business and do better work then people twice my age with twice the experience. I guess I'm a tile prodigy :bow::bow::bow: I should get a teaching gig at coverings because the people they have there only dream of doing the work I do :)

[Crestone Tile]

You're so humble, deepwater.

[muskymike]

We don't have too big of a head now do we Dave?:rolleyes:

[cx]

Sounds like you aughta partner up with Rick (tilelayer) there, Dave. You two young guys could take over the industry after alla these old guys die off. :)

[tilerite]

When I first started my business, it was my youthful exuberance and spanking good looks that separated me from the more experienced contractors but now, 22 years later, I have to say its my vast experience that sets me apart from the young, wet behind the ears whippersnappers.:D

[Dave Taylor]

EXPERIENCE - Does it have REAL Value

Let's put his basic question in a different perspective.

Who among us seeks out the newest, greenest, big-headest, lowest bidding surgeon to perform surgery?

Who searches the yellow pages for hospitals that advertise their singular lack of experience?

Who really wants Doogie Howser heading their personal medical team?

Experience carries a like value in each building trade as well. The question begs the answer.

[MudMaker]

Who among us seeks out the newest, greenest, big-headest, lowest bidding surgeon to perform surgery?

Dave, you have just discovered the crux of the entire Health Care dilemma and the reason behind escalating costs involved with the treating of patients.. people don't have to research Docs, like they do for everything else they purchase, they just pick out the best there are.....and ya even weren't thinkin on it were ya? but I digress... :D

[ob1kanobee]

MM I don't understand what you are saying. I don't think people research Doctors because there really is no practical way to do it.

Second, "they just pick out the best there are", well who in the world knows that?

If I asked you who the best podiatrist in Ohio was you mean you would know? Could you tell me in 24 hours? What determines 'best"?

Sometimes you don't even have a choice.

I have a friend who is a millionaire and his son suffered a severe cut and needed some stitches. Well the surgeon was gonna stitch it but he insisted they call a plastic surgeon. The hospital kinda laughed and told him his insurance wouldn't cover that then he got a little irritated and whipped out his American Express Black Card and said he didn't care what it costs just get me a plastic surgeon here now.

The plastic surgeon talked to Jim on the phone and explained how it would not be covered and Jim explained he has his Black Card or could go get cash and which would he prefer.

That is the only way I know of to get the best and yes he got his plastic surgeon. Jim and the surgeon are now good friends. You can't even tell the kid had a cut.

I had something happen to my big toe once (infection) and Jim sent me to his plastic surgeon. The Plastic Surgeon cut off and peeled pack my toe, removed my toenail, cleaned up the infection for a few days and stitched it all back together. If anyone other than a plastic surgeon had done that I would have scars there. You can't even tell it had been cut open. If my doc would of did it like the other stitches I have, it would be most noticeable. My toenail even grew back just like it was.

Moral of the story is if you have money, you can get the best.

[MudMaker]

Ben.. that's just not true.. I know who "One of the Best" Neurosurgeons in Dayton. How?? Asking around.. It's kinda like the tile trade.. You have to ask around and get opinions from people you trust to give those opinions.. I know one of the best Cardiologists around and yes best Podiatrists too.. I know some of the best dermatologists.. and I pick from that list when I go.. Sometimes it's trial and error also.. You try one and find out that you are just not simpatico with that one and move on to the next...
It's not a matter of money either cause I pay the same for the best as I would for the worst.. Something wrong with that - right? :)

The other thing is you don't wait till ya need one to pick one.. You search well in advance of needing one.. ;)

[reyesuela]

As a homeowner, I will go cheap/less experience if I know a lot about the subject and I can work side by side the person I hired. Otherwise, I'd choose experience AND good results, together. I think the experience is IN the good results...

[The Kid]

Yes expierence does deserve merit, and also should be considered when chosing a contractor as a client. However, its not a big factor in terms of overall knowledge that an individual is able to obtain. Im constantly spending hours and hours of free time searching and reading industry stuff to get myself an upper edge on my competition, im like a frekin sponge when it comes to that stuff, why? Because I CARE, I want to learn, Im interested in construction principles, I like to learn as much as I can, and I still really enjoy cranking out a fine product for my clients.

On the other hand, I know older contractors that still go at it as a job and not a lifestyle, yes, they have years and years of expierence on me but do they study the industry as much? Are they interested in satisfiying a client or just concerned about a paycheck?

What im getting at is a young fella who really cares about what he is doing can still come accross as, if not more knowledgeable then the most expierenced of folks.

I think expierence should be measured in several ways, not just how many years ones been working in a specific trade.

[John Bridge]

Thank you, Reyesuela. You have my support for president should you decide to run. :D

[jondon]

Yes what Jeremy said, many people have experience, it is the best teacher. If you have experience and you have a passion for it, then your probably gonna be more of a sponge than someone who is just collecting the paycheck and just getting the job done to get to the next one. There is a big difference from someone who gets the job done so he or she can get paid as opposed to the person who does the job and wants it to be the best he or she can do, using his or her experience in the trade :talk:

[MNTileGuy]

I think a guy like JB himself is a shining example of the best of both worlds. Eons of experience, but he didn't shun Schluter either, embracing new technology.

There's guys around my part of the world that have 3 times my experience but I wouldn't trust since they've been doing things the wrong way for 30 years and why change.

In fact I told Jason Butler that he's got a leg up on the competition around here by learning from this forum rather than from a yokel. :D

[LadyGodiva]

Mm, I don't know why you had to mention politics.

Experience is great, but sometimes as I said, someone with lots of experience tends to rely on doing things they way he/she did them years ago and not want to learn anything else. I can show you pictures of a job done by someone with 20 years experience. Same guy with 20 years plus on his back said, "heck yes, I can lay my tiles over your existing wood flooring and it will be just fine." Said flooring is warped from flood damage. He went on: "Oh, and I use mastic with my backsplash installs, it's the only way to go." If Mr. Experience is not keeping up with improvements and technology that can improve on an install, what the heck do I need to use that kind of person for?

I know what tiles I want for a backsplash and I can tell you now that I am looking for experience, but also knowledge that sounds more like what I get from reading posts on this board.

[Mountain Tile]

20 yrs. ago I got a job installing drywall on one of the best crews in that area. Their work was so good the finishers would fight over who was going to get the house they would hang the rock in. My first day on the job they took me aside and told me they would teach me the right way, but I had to be willing to learn. They said there were guys out there doing it wrong for twenty yrs. because they refused to learn the right way. We'll give you an example, there is an old sheetrocker who also works for this company they call " old blackmouth " they call him old blackmouth cause he never learned to take four nails and flip them around in his hand as he was nailing. He put the nails in his mouth, thus the black coating turned his mouth black. One day he was on the same job as us and we ate lunch together, he would take a bite out of his sandwich and the edge of the bread was black. That still resinates with me today, and I have always treid to learn the right way in all the trades I've learned over the yrs.
I think experience is a treasure, invaluable, and if you combine that with old school work ethics and new techknowledgy you got something powerful there. In this day and age you need both or you'll be left behind, Kinda like Florida :D Sorry had to get that one in there, Opie made me do it.

[reyesuela]

John--

Campaigning on a platform of Greenboard and Mastic Are Not Acceptable For Wet Installations?

[John Bridge]

In politics anything goes nowadays. Greenboard and mastic it is! :D

[tileguytodd]

People with the ability to learn and follow direction out weight experience in my book.
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Kevin

An Interesting Observation from someone who HIRES CREWS... :)

I see that a lot- the one who brag about how good they are- usually aren't good at all.


Janna, this has Also been My experience...In fact i heard one guy talking to himself all day saying "I'm Good, I'm Good "....I think he was trying to convince himself ;)

I've been setting tile fer 20 years and I still suck.

LOL @ Mike.....I guess alot of us could say.... compare what we do with the likes of a CISCO ( In NY ) and come to the same conclusion :D

We all may have limited experience in certain areas.

Which is where being well versed mechanically gives you the knowledge base required to just SUCK IT UP and Get er done!! We all see something new on occassion and we ALL find solutions....some solutions are better than others and how good they are can generally be directly related to your FIELD experience and Your OVERALL Knowledge base

Im 30 and grew up in the business and do better work then people twice my age with twice the experience. I guess I'm a tile prodigy I should get a teaching gig at coverings because the people they have there only dream of doing the work I do
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Dave

The long way about saying "I'm Good, I'm Good" :D:D:D

Who really wants Doogie Howser heading their personal medical team?

I want House, he's egocentric, Off the wall, ODD to say the least, BUT he has a GREAT guitar collection ..ALSO far more XP :tup2: :D

Moral of the story is if you have money, you can get the best.
That would Leave ME Out.....I'd have to settle for Doogies assistants Assistant :(

As a homeowner, I will go cheap/less experience if I know a lot about the subject and I can work side by side the person I hired.

Mr Customer......This is what the job will cost.....If you watch...x 2..........if you HELP...x 3 :D:D:D:D:D

I think expierence should be measured in several ways, not just how many years ones been working in a specific trade.


I couldnt agree more

Now an example of EXPERIENCE....-VS-.....EXPERIENCE

2nd generation tileman looks at a job and gives bid to redo it.....the JOB is failing because of structural problems..Its a radiant heat HYDRO system with 1 1/4" mudbed and marble.

He doesnt address the structural problems...says, I will tear it out and refloat mud and reset tile for XXXXX amount.

I went in and NEVER talked about tile.....I said tile is irrelevent until the structural issues are dealt with and I began to outline WHY his floor failed and WHY it would fail again.....I then began to look at WHERE we could make changes and said WHY those changes were absolutely critical.

I told him this was NOT a BID type job........Its an ESTIMATE type job as there are too many factors that are unknown until demo is completed

Estimates are generally close but anybody giving a firm price on a job like this is either PADDING that bid which means potentially overcharging, OR they will do the job too their numbers even IF it means forgoing some critical element in its completion......

The homeowner KNOWS there are structural issues......He KNOWS that 8000.00 for the original experienced setters bid does not address these....In the end, it will be close to 10,000 to solve this particular problem and YES, the homeowner understood spending MORE now will save problems again later.....
Could I have sold this job BEFORE this forum........Probably....BUT, Confidence was high knowing what I know NOW vs 6-7 years ago even. Not all was learned HERE but enough of it was, to show you the VALUE of a forum like this!!:tup2:

[johntrent]

Todd - I know you have been back lurking & passively posting for a bit now and it has probably been said but I'll say it agian -

It is great to have you back here active - your spin on things always teaches me something new or at least makes me think. Most of the time it is on the business side of things. I don't know it all but I know enough to figure out what I don't know on the technical side - the business side of things is where I need more "experience" - and you do very well at putting things in perspective for me.


so - Thanks! :tup2:

Oh - I need to thank JB also for starting this forum so you...and the rest of ya'll have some place to come & share your knowledge with me -

Thanks JB & the rest of the behind the scene peoples - :tup2:

[tileguytodd]

Thank You John :)

I have actually Lurked very little.....Ive been spending alot of time in Other Venues that are while not directly TILE forums or Information sites. Many of these sites relate to tile and flooring materials and mechanics in one way or another.

Sometimes one must break down problems we experience in our industry to the smallest denominator and work from there back up the ladder.

Just one of these items ive spent time with For example: breaking down grouts and cements to its smallest elements.
Almost all of these utilize some type of Latex Polymers etc. a complete industry seperate from ours but related to many of the problems that Tile Contractors experience today.

I have spent time perusing what chemical Engineers in the polymer industry & Professors have to say about different applications and what polymer Sciences & Researchers have been discovering about the mechanics of these Polymers so I can Better understand the Science behind the products we use.

While I am not a chemist, i did take some chemistry in collage ( I was at one time studying for an Electrical Engineering Degree) so while some of it is over my head, I can follow conversations and understand much of the discussions.
Keep in mind, these products are used in other industries besides tile setting materials and many of these industries experience similar types of issues as we do.

It gives one a different perspective and a better understanding of why things work the way they do or why they dont etc......Ive never been one to simply accept everything I am told at face value, particullarly when much of what is said doesnt add up or changes as often as I change my socks....

All of this is very time consuming of course but does give you a different view of things.......

cement
aggregates
Wood products
Radiant heat and Thermodynamics

all seperate industries/Subjects with much that is related to Our industry yet the conversations and discussions are unrelated to Tile.........or Are they??
Much can be learned from these discussions if you step back and see what relates to our own industry, what similarities of issues show up again and again in multiple applications etc and what that industry is doing to deal with them if anything... :)

[John Bridge]

You got it right, John. I started the forum. ;)

But I didn't build it up by myself. It was built, and continues to run, through the efforts of countless people, moderators, regulars and other contributors. In fact, if I think about it too much, it makes me feel insignificant. It truly does. :)

[CabotAndRowe.com]

Personally I love these inexperienced guys who are afraid to learn anything new like Kerdi or handling glass tiles. Often when a seminar is given by a manufacturer I'd be the only one to show up. These hacks allow me to raise my prices. Repairing crappy installations supplies about 1/3 of my work. When I explain and show the customer why their shower leaks, the steps that should have been taken, the differences in the level of commitment to their home, there is no debate over price.

I am not bidding against some hot shot, pretty boy, low balling contractor. We're not even in the same league. I am bidding to the customer, selling all facets of our work, not just price. We stay very busy.

[tileguytodd]

Personally I love these inexperienced guys who are afraid to learn anything new like Kerdi or handling glass tiles. Often when a seminar is given by a manufacturer I'd be the only one to show up. These hacks allow me to raise my prices.

Paul, I dont think all are afraid to Learn new techniques, Some like myself who have been around and seen manufacturers come out with a product or technique and then change their minds a year or two later or change the product a year or 2 later simply are not in any hurry to jump on a bandwagon.....Not when its our return/repeat customers who are relying on our expertise.
Example...Jersey Mud job was a manufacturers installation method....they changed their minds after several failures of course..
Had we all jumped on that bandwagon think of the added damage to the trades.

There is far more too it than Fear to learn new techniques. Once youve been burned, you learn to keep your fingers off the burner!!

When you live in small town USA, all you have is your reputation and I protect mine with impunity. I prefer proven techniques and methods , and while i Will do a small beta test job, I let people know these are new products new techniques and let them make the call......

A couple of failures is damaging in a small population area. In a Metro area, it is much different and is unlikely to affect any contractor in any trade...

Much higher Risk for small town USA contractors and really, are you willing to gamble not just a job but your entire career on a product that is fairly new when realistically, you have other proven options?

I dont think you would be... :)

[John Bridge]

Well, I think a distinction has to be made between flash-in-the-pan products or techniques and products that have been in use for some time but are "new" to installers who make no attempt to stay up with the course of technology. The example given was Schluter Kerdi, which has been in use for years. It can't be compared to lick and stick or Jersey mud jobs. :)

As many of you know, I'm a mud man. My very first day in the trade I was immersed in mud. And I'm proud of that. In fact, I used to boast that what I did hadn't changed much since the Stone Age, and that mud men hadn't changed their ways since the Romans invented cement mortar.

But now I'm a Renaissance man. I've experienced a re-birth. I'm still proud that I can communicate with the past, but I'm equally proud that I'm in touch with the future. :)

[MudMaker]

He went on: "Oh, and I use mastic with my backsplash installs, it's the only way to go."

Although not the only way to go, Mastic is still a viable method for setting tile on a back splash.. It's a bit more expensive, but still an acceptable method.. It does allow you more work time than thinset..