Accessible shower on concrete slab

[Allison Gilley]

I am working on a renovation of a concrete frame hotel. We want to use ceramic tile roll-in showers in the accessible units(2), but the floor slab is only 3" thick. Do we a) chip out the slab to achieve the slope to drain, or b) ramp up to the shower, then slope down to drain set at existing floor level? Our main concern is accessibility first, and keeping water contained in the shower. I have looked at the Schluter Kerdi drain...Is this the answer to my dilemma?

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[Bud Cline]

Allison,

In a hospital project I removed enough existing floor to reslope to a drain. There was no "pan liner" installed but the whole area was waterproofed with the Laticrete Waterproofing System. This all had to be handicap accessible of course. Appears that this worked well.

In another application, a jail, the GC would not remove any existing floor slab or plumbing and wanted to use the existing floor drains around which they built concrete block walls to creat the showers (5). In this case I created "rollover" curbs making the showers handicap accessible. I think the specs in this case called for a two inch variance from the top of the curb to the top of the shower drain. These showers were also sealed with the Laticrete Waterproofing System. Working great to date.

In a college dorm we waterproofed an entire bathroom (' X 12'). In this application the GC also would not remove any flooring (concrete) but in this project there was a basement. We raised the entire room floor with two layers of 1/2" Wonderboard except for a 4' X 7' area for the shower. We then improvised a 1/2" rollover curb across the 7' dimension thereby giving us a 1- 1/2" variance from top of curb to top of floor drain. The floor was sloped with Mapei Plani Patch to feather the 1" rise to the existing floor elevation in the shower leave-out and thru the access door a little ways into the bedroom. This entire room was then waterproofed, again with Laticrete products. The college then installed a shower curtain across the 7' open area just inside the curb. I think this venture worked great also with the exception of the drain being a little slow to evacuate the water as fast as it should. I don't see the egress rate of the water as my problem though.

I'm not one to advocate one product manufacturer over another but in these three projects the Laticrete did the job. All the major manufacturers have similar products.

In all cases the waterproofing was installed up the walls and the curbs were created from 2" porcelain tiles set in place with thinset then sloped with Plani-Patch. Finally the finish tile was installed overall. Pretty slick deal.

I've not used the KERDI system but I'm looking forward to it, so I'm no help to you there.

[John Bridge]

Hi Allison,

Welcome! Geez, you're lucky to run into this famous group of practitioners!

Occasionally, I build accessible showers for a small ADA firm here in Houston. http://www.adaptiveaccess.com/ We've pretty well concluded that trying to dig into an existing slab destroys its integrity and more or less screws things up.

I've done roll-ins by ramping up. It's a real pain, but it gives you space for the pan liner. I like Bud's method of using water-proofer, but I've never done it.

And looking at the Schluter literature, it seems the Kerdi drain, coupled with the Kerdi material on the sloped shower floor, might do the trick. In fact, I will try it the next time the situation comes up.

[Bud Cline]

John,

I'm sure everyone makes a similar product. The one I have had great success with is Laticrete 9235. This product (if your not familiar) is paintable/rollable and is used with a fabric. The fabric comes in 6" rolls as well as 30" rolls X ???.

I've been tempted to offer a residential shower redo customer a super discount if they will allow me to use this product on their shower. Just think, no clamping flange floor drain, no two cast floor, no pan liner. Wham bam and your outa there. Think it would work? I wonder for how long? I'm counting on it lasting in the places I've already used it a long long time.

I think I've seen advertising by Laticrete boasting of using 9235 for all the water installations at the Las Vegas Venetian Resort: decorative pools, fountains and canals.

[John Bridge]

I'm thinking you still need weep holes -- the Kerdi drain, maybe?

[Bud Cline]

John,

To be completely honest with you I wasn't very comfortable the first few times I used the waterproofing only.

I think I agree with the need for weep holes but at the same time you are only dealing with the tile thickness between you and the waterproofing.

Once water penetrates the tile and grout it can (hopefully) only go as far as the waterproofing. I would assume the regular exchange of fresh water would create no more problems than that of the water penetrating the tile/grout, concrete on its way to a vinyl liner inches away.

If memory serves my "eldest project" using these methods is now 5 or 6 years old with no problems to my knowledge and I'm still working with all the same people today.

[John Bridge]

Yeah, Bud, it's certainly not as bad as some of the things so-called "plumbers" have created down here through the years. I'm still taking apart showers where the lead pan was soldered to a lead down pipe at the sub-floor level, the drain being a couple inches above. Talk about stink!

But I mean, what do you do? Just sort of brush the waterproofing around the drain? What kind of drain?

[Bud Cline]

John,

9235 is used with a fabric. The product is painted (I generally roll it with a four inch roller) onto the floor and wall junctures and I have a brush at-the-ready for getting into the corners, then the fabric is immediately imbedded and rolled again. Depending on atmospherics of the area 9235 dries fairly rapidly. A third coat is then applied and sometimes more, just depends.

I use the "six inch" fabric to turn corners and turn up walls at the corners usually going to within two inches of the intended tile height. In some applications I have used the 30" roll to cover concrete block and apply the layers horizontally (30") in a watershed fashion like roof shingles.

The drains have always been standard floor drains which I had no say-so in anyway. I sometimes use fabric around the drains too but I don't know why. I read somewhere in Laticrete's specs one time that pure silicone can be used to encircle the drains on top of the cured 9235 and before installing the tile. But like I've said before, I don't trust thinset to stick to the silicone.

I have a time or two or three "bushed-out" the concrete around an existing floor drain a little to allow the tile to set flush (almost) with the top of the drain strainer. This is where I could see the need for weeps but have never done it. On the other occaisions the tile is set so that when fitted to the drain opening there is a drop the thickness of the tile. So that means the 9235 (if used) is right there, hence no real need for weeps.

It has just this instant occurred to me that I should take a look and see what TCA and ANSI has to say on this subject. Oh boy; do you see Dave Gobis around anywhere?

I should have you thoroughly confused by now huh?

[John Bridge]

No, I'm clear on it now, but if Dave G. is lurking around here, he'll bust us both! Are you lurking, Dave?

[Bud Cline]

On the subject of pans. I don't think I have ever demo'd a shower where I found a vinyl pan was originally used. This must say something for that process.

Most of the demo's here result in the discovery of remnants of the old lead pans. Usually there is little signs of lead remaining. Sometimes when there is lead it can be intact except around the floor drain where it has dissappeared intirely. In other showers roofing felt was used but not mopped, and in some cases (more than I care to mention) nothing was used, "absolutely nothing".

Unlike Texas we have basements here. Most residential structures have basements. This means lots of wood floor joists and subfloors and lots of rot. In all cases I have seen of lead pans being installed originally, the lead was placed flat on the floor (wood or concrete) and up the walls slightly. Usually the lead shows signs of being stressed from hammer wacks in an attempt to "fine tune" the corners. I find some corners cut and welded (solidered) but damned few.

All in all showers are failing on a regular basis here. I haven't been advertising showers until just recently then only at my website. I hate the damned things and I hate the reactions people have when they hear the estimate to repair or replace them. Truth is I think they should cost double what they do sometimes.

By the way, I have plenty of brand new fishing weights and sinkers if anyone would like some.

[Edited by Bud Cline on 06-07-2001 at 08:40 PM]

[Sonnie Layne]

Great conversation, interesting material, Bud. I don't do enough of the work to discuss it, but I'm always up for new techniques.
By the way, I used to be quite the angler. I came up with a rigging for catching Buffalo and Carp that required a long, thin weight. Lead pans and roof jacks are the perfect answer!

Sonnie

[John Bridge]

Why is it I always feel so ignorant after reading one of Sonnie's posts? Lead pans and "roof jacks"? Catching Buffalo with a fishing weight?

[Sonnie Layne]

aaaccckk, John, don't act so, well... I forget you're really not from Texas (and it's occasional 30" of rain). Glad you're safe, bud. You know very well what a lead roof jack is.

For those that don't, it's the attachment you place to the roof to vent pipes up through the roof to.

As far as the buffalo goes, it's a fish. Found only in three bodies of water in Texas and not much elsewhere. Freshwater, related to carp and drum. Hefty guys, my biggest was 89 pounds, fight pound per pound like a redfish (red drum), small mouth as well and very finicky about their feeding habits. Any resistance at all and they'll spit out the bait. Therefore, I needed a lot of weight (for distance and to hold the rig in place in running water) yet no chance or little chance of getting snagged on anything on the bottom of the body of water. Something about the size of a pencil in diameter, but varying in length to afford the different weights for different conditions.

Dat buffalo, cher, be da best eetin' freshwater feesh dat eber wuz made. Tricky to de-bone (like carp). My fav saltwater (marine) fish is flounder. Gotta rig fer dem boyz two, but dat be nudder storry.

At any rate, like Bud and yourself, I've come up with a collection of strips of lead that serve the purpose well. My angler friends are always happy to know when I'm doin a shower/vent/roof job. I don't get to fish anymore, but I trade the rigs for food. Rather be fishin' if the truth be known. Bet there's some big 'uns down the middle of I-10 and US 59 just East of you 'bout now...

Where would a fellow go to volunteer some construction time to rebuild? If you hear, let me know. Too close to home.

[Bud Cline]

I always thought a buffalo was a carp, you mean it's not?

Some of the best fishin' in the world is in Texas but of course everyone knows that. Lake Fork is tops, the biggest damned Largemouth in Fishdom come out of that pond.

Sonnie, your from Louisiana originally???

[John Bridge]

Oh! You mean that little roof thingy that goes between the shingles and the vent pipes. I made mine out of adobe. I just looked up there, and it appears they're beginning to melt. It'll be lead next time for sure!

Oh, and I went by yo site. Day be a gal tryin' to ax you sumpin'.



[Edited by John Bridge on 06-09-2001 at 08:28 PM]