New shower install - grout gets and stays wet- even though sealed

[FlynHokie]

Hello all. I just installed a new shower with 12 x 24" porcelian tile, and the home Depot brand of grout (can't remember name right now, and can't find reciept to get the name.)

I orginilly sealed the tile with a brush on sealer. Again, don't remember brand, but it was in a little yellow bottle, with a plastic tipped brush. 3 coats, did pretty much nothing. The groud ended up still absorbing H20.

I let the grout dry for several weeks, and resealed with the spray on grout sealer, which repells the water great (same stuff I used on my kitchen floor, blue spray can). After 3 coats, and a few days of drying, it appeared to work great on the first few showers. However, when I got home last night, the grout was wet (on the vertical joint on the bottom of the shower).

Is there a way to prevent the grout from getting soaked, and staying soaked. It's pretty unsightly, and I'm sure it will cause mold problems soon.

I'm wondering if the tile itself absorbs water? It is a porcelian tile, with a semi-gloss finish, so that does surprise me.

I'm also wondering if the grout along the botom of the tile / top of the shower pan should have had 'weep' holes in it. I've read yes and no on that topic. The shower pan did not specify to do this.

See picture below of wet grout.

See thread <http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=73652> for information/pics on the shower and bathroom job.

[Sponsored Links]

[jondon]

Just saw your post, got a first name? Couple questions I have for you and something to add on weep holes, this is done at the drain in your pan, not on the tile. So no on that issue you are fine. When you seal grout it should repel water just like wax repels water on a car it doesn't allow it to seep into the grout.

My question on your shower, is it just at the vertical joint in the picture the grout it getting wet or other joints, and does this one joint get dry after while or does that discoloration stay there, if so you wouldn't want to have sealed over it if it did get discolored or you just sealed that in. I don't think the water is getting through the tile, there is another issue here.

When you seal grout it should not let any water absorb into it so either the sealer isn't working, or you got something going on behind the tile.

This will now go to the top of the thread posts so someone else can hopefully address it as well. Let us know what sealer you used, try to find the bottle or go to where you bought it. That may help us.

[SABoyt]

From the description i would say the first sealer was Tile Lab (yellow bottle). You should probably check the condition of the sealer to see if it actually sealed. Rub a very wet rag on the grout joints and see if any other areas change color.

This one looks like it could be wicking water from the top of the pan. Do you have a good caulk where the wall meets the pan? If not, that is where i would start. Otherwise, it would have to be coming from behind and that does not seem likely from where it is showing up.

[FlynHokie]

Did a little more searching.

The first grout sealer I used was TILELab 4CARE Grout Sealer from Custom building Products, bought from Home Depot. this is a little yellow bottle with a plastic bristle brush on top that you brush the sealant in.

This one didn't repel water very well. Got the wet grout in all the 3 bottom vertical joints on the 3 walls.

I let that grout dry completely so that there was no discoloration in the grout, then I resealed with Tile Guard One Step Grout Sealer, from Homax. This is a spray on, wipe off sealer. It sealed the grout real nice, water repelles off of it.

The shower was built per the pasted link in the original post, but basically, I mortared in a shower pan, 6 mil plastic, 1/2" hardiboard, thinset, then tile/grout/sealer.

I used Sanded caulk at all corners. Could that be the problem? the caulk line appears to be ok.

Oh, this is just happening on the vertical joint, on the bottom row. that makes me think water is settling in that joint, or it is seeping up?

[Stone Dude]

one of the biggest myths about sealers is that it will waterproof the surface, this is not true.

just because a surface is darkening from penetration does not mean the sealer is not working. impregnating sealers are designed to allow moisture and vapor transmission, there for will allow moisture and vapor to go the opposite way.

whether or not this is the case here, I dont know, but its certainly possible.

[jondon]

one of the biggest myths about sealers is that it will waterproof the surface, this is not true

Hello was just trying to learn something here, last post says that the sealer
won't waterproof the surface as in grout. If its not meant to keep water out, then why do they want you to spray water on it after so long and see if the water beads, if the water beads is that not saying the grout is waterproof?
sorry maybe I am just misinformed, I do realize there are many diff kinds of sealers .......
I need to be educated...thanks!

[SABoyt]

Oh, this is just happening on the vertical joint, on the bottom row. that makes me think water is settling in that joint, or it is seeping up?
That was the point i was making in my former post:
This one looks like it could be wicking water from the top of the pan.

Sealers don't allow for "water" transmission they allow for "vapor" transmission. The water molecules are too large to impregnate the sealer. The evaporation process consists of smaller particles that make their way through the seal by osmosis. Thus, if you put water drops on the top of a sealed surface, they should bead up and not change the color of the grout/tile/stone.

Sealers are also not protecting the surface necessarily. Sealers impregnate the microscopic pores and fill them so that other spills have no where to go. It's like trying to add water to a full glass. Once full, it can't accept any more.

[MDS]

My guess is the caulk at the bottom is preventing the vertical lines from draining. I can't see why the plastic, elevated floor pan would be collecting enough water to allow for weeping up.

Had the floor to pan joint been done with grout, and/or the grout properly sealed, I don't think you would see this problem, at least not this quickly.

Two different cheap clear sealers apparently did not seal up this grout completely. After a good hot shower enough water is getting into the grout and falling down so that part of the grout is the last to dry.

Before you start heating up the tar and collecting feathers, I know grouting that change of plane between two thermally dissimilar materials is potential trouble. Very high potential. But if everything is as solid as he claims, I bet it would have held up well.

But as far as moving forward, colorseal may be the easiest way out. Provided it sticks OK to all the junk on the grout.

Please re-read the first two words of this post. :deal:

[FlynHokie]

Mike, what is colorseal? What will it do?

The second sealer absolutely seals the grout. water beads up real nice on it, thats why I don't understand the wet color on the bottom.

[SABoyt]

Had the floor to pan joint been done with grout, and/or the grout properly sealed, I don't think you would see this problem, at least not this quickly.

Am i mistaken? It looks like to me i am seeing grout on top of the pan, not caulk. It's possible that it didn't get enough sealer on that area. I still think it is wicking up.

I wouldn't jump to color sealing as a quick fix. colorseal will require that the grout not have a lot of moisture BEHIND the sealer or it will delaminate from the grout. Colorsealing perfectly good clear sealed grout in a shower, IMO, would be a mistake. You would have to totally strip the clear seal prior to colorsealing, creating more work.

Flyn, color seal is a sealer that is topical that contains epoxy or acrylic and seals the grout and recolors it with a topical coating at the same time. The industry debates its effectiveness and life expectancy in showers. It is a great product used properly and applied by professionals.

Has the grout joint dried yet? If it's dry. Pour water on the top of the pan and let it sit. See if it wicks up or not. Simplest way to determine the problem. If it does, just reseal the grout joints in that area OR caulk between the pan and the wall. I like to see this anyway. The pan is going to expand at a different rate than the wall and also flex, therefore creating a cracking joint in the near future. (we see this every day).

[MDS]

I used Sanded caulk at all corners. Could that be the problem? the caulk line appears to be ok.

When I read that, and saw the pan/wall line dry, I assumed he caulked that line. Besides, it's the right thing to do (caulk) and it seems like he did everything by the book.

I still question the clear seal. It may bead a little water but it sure seems like water is getting past the grout.

I agree that colorseal would be a last, last resort, but if he never wants to see a shift in grout color, before, during or after a shower, then he may have to strip well and color.

[FlynHokie]

Thanks y'all. The grout isn't dry yet. I'm guessing it will take 2 weeks or so, based on last time. I may try to stick a vacuum cleaner to it to see if that helps, or a fan or something.

I did caulk using sanded caulk between the pan and the walls, and in the corner of the walls, and against the ceiling.

Once dry, I'll pour water on the pan edge, to see if it pools up near the wall, or drips to the drain. If I need to recaulk, should I rip out the 'old' caulk, and apply a new bead, or just add another thin layer of caulk?

[Stone Dude]

every sealer will bead up soon after it is applied, this means nothing. check it two days later and months down the road to see how it is doing. Just because it beads up on the surface does not mean it is waterproof.

I dont want to get too technical or anything I'm just saying that a little darkening does not mean the sealer failed.

impregnating sealers are not designed to "waterproof"


more often than not, whoever applies the sealer does not put nearly the number of applications that are necessary to allow its to do its job, and it will fail shortly after.

[FlynHokie]

Should it be more than 3 applications?

[SABoyt]

If it takes two weeks for that grout line to dry without any additional water, you have a problem. (as if you didn't think that already :bang:) Don't you guys agree? That seems to be a critical piece of information. Anything more than 24 hours and i would be concerned about what the source is. What's behind that wall? Is it a wet wall?

Did you use option 1 in your illustration as the install procedure? How far below the hardi does the unsupported tile lay?

[FlynHokie]

The wall is a 2x4 stud wall, non structural, on a single floor crawlspace house. So I don't see how I can be getting water leaking from behind the wall.....

I did use Option #1
During install, the vapor barrier was hung down into the pan. Hardi backer was installed ontop of the barrier, over the top of the pan flange, with from what I recall about 1/8" or so space above the top of the flange.

The tile was installed ontop of that with about 1/8" space over bottom of flange.

[ccarlisle]

Vapour barrier, half-ich HarbiBacker, thinset, tile... So no waterproofing membrane... is that it?

Hint hint.

[MDS]

6 mil poly and hardi board should be water tight enough for a shower wall with a plastic pan. I'm wondering about that poly being draped onto the base. Obviously it was trimmed back before the caulk went in, but wondering if it formed a little trough or something.

Are all the verticals wet on the bottom or just the one shown?

[ccarlisle]

"6 mil poly and hardi board should be water tight enough for a shower wall with a plastic pan."

Isn't.

[SABoyt]

Why not just cut out this section of grout and regrout? See what is behind the grout, anything that looks unusual about the thinset. Then regrout and reseal.

[FlynHokie]

Said 'vapor barrier', to imply water barrier. 6 mil plastic, from what I read on here, is a perfectly acceptable option. Only other option I saw was the Kerdi-system, or the likes of Kerdi.

The plastic was trimmed to level with the tile once tile was installed. I thought the same thing about it holding in water......but the wet lines are wet on all walls at the bottom row vertical grout joint.

If I take out the grout line, what would I be looking for behind the wall? It's thinset on hardibacker there, don't know what I'd see.

[SABoyt]

My mistake. I was under the impression that this was only one grout line that was staying wet.

What kind of caulk, and brand, did you use at the junction of the vertical wall and pan?

[FlynHokie]

Caulk was Polyblend Ceramic Tile Sanded Caulk.

[SABoyt]

The water is definately wicking up from the bottom. Look at the picture, the grout is darker at the bottom than at the top. It keeps leading me back to the caulk line. The fact that it takes so long to dry out tells me that the sealer is well in place and blocking the moisture transmission from getting out of the grout.

Still leads me to believe the caulk is the culprit - somehow. Did you caulk the same day as the grout? Was it caulked before sealing the grout or after? This caulk contains some level of petroleum which could have gotten onto the bottom part of the grout causing the sealer to not bond in a very small area. This would lead to allowing water in but not letting in enough air to allow the water to evaporate quickly.

If this is true, removing a small amount of grout at the bottom of each joint and re-grouting would eliminate the problem.

[FlynHokie]

Well, since it's taking so long to dry, I guess I'll do that :-(

Suggestions for removing the grout? Anything I should be aware of, or is there anywhere I can read up on tips for doing it?

Should I also remove the caulk, and recaulk? Or should I just throw a thin bead of caulk ontop of whats there?

Thanks all!

[MDS]

Theory du jour...

That's a pretty big caulk bead along the bottom edge. How long after caulking before the first shower? (And please don't tell me this is a steam shower!)

The sanded caulk you used is pretty much just a thick latex paint. As it skins over on top it slows the drying of the backside, and in this application it doesn't sound like there was anywhere for the water to escape from behind. So if the caulk was still wet when you took the first shower, and water keeps getting to the back of the caulk...

Cut out a little caulk right below a wet vertical grout line and see if you find mush. If so, save the grout and replace the mush. If it is over 1/4" deep, do it in more than one lift.

But this still points to water getting through the wall somewhere and if there ain't a hole it must be unsealed grout.

[ccarlisle]

"But this still points to water getting through the wall somewhere and if there ain't a hole it must be unsealed grout."

I agree. Or badly-sealed grout...And my concern about the adequacy of your vapour barrier/half-inch HardiBacker/thinset/tile combination, was to show that this is the result of that type of construction. It's what we call a "five-year shower" - because we make appointments in 5 years time to fix these messes.

If the wall grout - in any way - lets water through the tile plane onto the HardiBacker, then it's only a matter of time before mould sets into the Hardibacker and comes back out through the grout. CBU is water resistant, not waterproof, and thus can retain water for long periods of time. Eventually mould sets up a homestead there and proliferates. The vapour barrier just keeps it dark, humid and warm...

Now think about the Kerdi system and where it is located; their system goes: half-inch HardiBacker/thinset/Kerdi/thinset/tiles - no vapour barrier! Any water can't get beyond the Kerdi...in fact their recommended system is: wallboard/thinset/Kerdi/thinset/tiles!

So the fact that you have a vapour barrier behind the HardiBacker just makes a good place for water to collect, mould to form and problems occur. Now sealing the grout from the shower side just accerbates the problem...now there's not even enough ventilation to dry it out!

You've got a mould sandwich...sorry. Too late now but keep this in mind.

[FlynHokie]

Will check the caulk tonight.

Wish I had read a bit more into the set-up. I had read both options (6mil and Kerdi) as being OK to build. Hopefully, I can fix this problem, cause A rip-out and rework is not going to happen in the time I own this house...

[FlynHokie]

OK, removed the caulk along the shower pan, and it was not gooey. It was dry

This did allow for the grout to dry, mostly. I will still remove the three vertical grout lines that stayed wet, cause they are still a different color than the others, slightly.

When I reseal the grout lines, do you all have a recommended sealer? (aside from that color seal?) and where do I find it?

Thanks much,

FlynHokie

[SABoyt]

I would use the same sealer that you used before.

[SpartyRules]

I agree. Or badly-sealed grout...And my concern about the adequacy of your vapour barrier/half-inch HardiBacker/thinset/tile combination, was to show that this is the result of that type of construction. It's what we call a "five-year shower" - because we make appointments in 5 years time to fix these messes.

If the wall grout - in any way - lets water through the tile plane onto the HardiBacker, then it's only a matter of time before mould sets into the Hardibacker and comes back out through the grout. CBU is water resistant, not waterproof, and thus can retain water for long periods of time. Eventually mould sets up a homestead there and proliferates. The vapour barrier just keeps it dark, humid and warm...

Now think about the Kerdi system and where it is located; their system goes: half-inch HardiBacker/thinset/Kerdi/thinset/tiles - no vapour barrier! Any water can't get beyond the Kerdi...in fact their recommended system is: wallboard/thinset/Kerdi/thinset/tiles!

So the fact that you have a vapour barrier behind the HardiBacker just makes a good place for water to collect, mould to form and problems occur. Now sealing the grout from the shower side just accerbates the problem...now there's not even enough ventilation to dry it out!

You've got a mould sandwich...sorry. Too late now but keep this in mind.

:suspect:

I have seen this method approved on this forum multiple times over. Isn't Hardi-backer suitable in this situation because of it's inorganic nature, that is not a mold buffet?

I'd like to see some other pro's response to the fact that 6mil poly, hardi, thinset, tile is a 5 year shower......:corn:

[cx]

Ryan, when you post quotes like that, would you please add attribution so folks can see who it is you might be quoting? It's just not very meaningful without that, and having to search out the quoted text is a bit of a PITA, eh? :)

While I have heard that it's possible for Fiber/Cement boards to actually support mold growth, I've never seen any factual supporting information nor a posting about an actual occurrence.

Showers have been built with mud walls over a moisture barrier for many decades with much success. Correctly constructed, these shower walls drain completely to the shower pan and do not hold any water. The water that does not drain out as a liquid returns to the shower as a vapor through the same tile walls from whence it entered. If #15 felt is used as the moisture barrier, some drying is also possible into the wall cavity depending upon conditions there.

Its a good shower construction method. As with all such methods, it's important that each step of it be correctly completed.

They can, and have, and do last for decades without problems and they are still being built on a daily basis.

That said, I still favor the surface-applied, direct-bonded waterproofing concept. Just a better system, to my thinking.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[ccarlisle]

Ryan:-

Look, you're not wrong....you have seen plently of discussuion on this and other forums about "mud" showers and I know plenty of people with far more experience than I have not only defend them - but build them! I don't do them personally and I have no issues with those who do.

Same goes for CBU showers - that's where the CBU panel is used instead of 'mud'. IMO you gain a bit on the ease of construction but you have to be more exact in your methods in the more limited times you can build a CBU shower so it's a trade-off. But boy there's a lot of misconceptions out there!

Furthermore, in my geographical area, we have issues with "vapour barriers" due to our climate and I think have a good handle on them...I haven't any research findings on this but I feel that our climate (especially in winter but also in summer) amplifies shower problems and impacts on the framing, insulation and moisture control of the whole house - not just the shower room. Now I may be wrong here too but I have no idea about the issue of shower construction in, say, Mississippi but I can imagine they are similar. Except in re: the cold...that is.

To my mind, and like CX says, mud showers have been built for years - as have CBU showers - and they are a 'good' shower. But nowadays, I don't think 'good' is adequate anymore, many people don't offer them either - and I would go as far as to say that this board is proof of that. It's like "minimum code" with reference to building materials and methods...'minimum code' is 'acceptable' and produces 'good' houses - but is the bare minimum and whereas it's adequate, it's hardly reassuring for the homeowner.

Now in this case, the OP's case, others may have pinpointed a problem that gave rise to this discussion. Maybe not; but either way, what we know about the construction of the shower is...that it's "adequate". And we're talking grout not being sealed, caulking that might have a pinpoint in it, inadequate sealing of the grout (!)... I mean, my gosh, is that what this shower's heath depends on? a sealer?? missing grout???

Boy, if my $10,000 shower's health depended on grout, caulking or a sealer, I'd be kicking myself for not knowing the difference between a $10,000 shower and a $2,000 shower - because that's what I probably got. And I'd get myself a waterproof shower in a jiffy - probably a Kerdi shower..

But I think I do know the difference between this and the other types of showers - even though I have lot to learn - and my customers expect me to know that. I do not supply "minimum code", 5-year showers - but refer and encourage people to this and other boards to do their own research. I am sure that if you do your own research, you'll quickly find which way the wind is blowing.

But to each his own...

[doitright]

Hi Flynn :)

A lot of good theories posted here.

These are my opinions & suggestions:

1. Remove all of the siliconized acrylic caulk.
2. Remove the darkened grout & replace with fresh grout.
3. I would personally recaulk all perimeter corners (remove existing caulk first) with a color coordinated 100% Silicone caulk. Stock colored silicone sealants are available from Laticrete and TEC. If you can't find the correct color, contact ColorRite and they will have a color to match your existing grout. It will be available in either ColorSil (10 oz. tubes), or PolySil (6 oz. tubes).
4. If the situation occurs again, you'll probably have to remove the first course of wall tile, apply a surface waterproofer, retile, grout, and caulk. You may also want to consider bonding the vapor barrier to the tub and seal the bottom of the HardiBoard with caulk. I wouldn't worry about mold on the HardiBoard (as there is nothing for it to feed on, unless soap is present).
5. Use a high quality sealer such as Impregnator Pro, or STT SB. Depending on the porosity of the grout, several applications may be necessary.

[MDS]

OK, so what is the moral to THIS story? Let's set aside the debate on overall shower construction for now (btw, I'm a Wedi & silicone caulk guy).

Flynn did a lot of homework and tried his damnedest to build a perfect shower, except for one point. When it came to a clear seal, he used some unremarkable sealer, but bless his heart he did three coats and did it after a very thorough dry time. And when that failed, 3 more coats of "something in a spray can".

We will assume that he used a good grout and installed it properly, at least for the sake of this argument. And I think we all agree that for this problem to surface this quickly, it has to be the fault of the clear seal.

My background is in industrial coatings where any serious product is accompanied my reams of data and the performance of various classes of products are well understood. Good-better-best options exist and decisions can be made according to budgets, expectations and job site conditions.

Such is not the case for grout sealers, clear or color. And more often than not the selection and application is not given the consideration it deserves. I guess you either have to believe what you read on the bottle or come to a forum like this to get some better information.

[ccarlisle]

Well, I think one moral you can retain from this case is how flimsy a thread Flyn's shower health hangs by; unfortunately, this case is but one of millions of cases out there and therefore one has to look further afield to find the real reasons why showers like this fail.

I really sympathize with him; I mean, he seems to have done everything by the book and in the end may have been let down by.... a sealer. It's like having the Mercedes in the shop for a failed rubber hose...so something doesn't make sense. The sealer industry is about as nebulous as the granite industry is and yet people invest thousands on a shower that depends on a $10 bottle of siliconate. It's time to remove the weak link.

Moulds are everywhere; all they need to live on is humidity and a source of food; another mould can be 'food'; dark, warm environments are ideal, whether CBU or mud. So provide those conditions and you get mould.

[FlynHokie]

Thanks Do-it-right, et all! I'll follow your steps.

Like you all said, I had done tons of reasearch into this build, and through it all, thought I had done the correct job.

I will follow your steps listed! Much appreciated!

[FlynHokie]

Do-it-right,

quick question. You mentioned using a 100% silicone caulk. I assume you mean non-sanded?

Also, you mentioned color matched sealant from ColorRite. I was looking at their products, and they are all caulks.

Maybe it's just my lack of understanding of the terminology, but when are caulk and sealant the same?

Now - if they are, what is the best product to 'seal' the grout to prevent it from getting wet?

Thanks again for your help! I've got time this weekend to work on the shower, and hope to get the caulk and grout removed today, maybe new grout put in.

FlynHokie

[doitright]

Hi FlynHokie :)

Sorry, I've been out of town (Michigan NASCAR).

I haven't run into a sanded silicone as of yet, but PolySil has some neat colored particles in them designed for use with solid surface colors.

A silicone sealant is a specially designed caulk, it is not meant to take the place of grout. Some of these silicone sealants are designed for use underwater (such as pools and aquariums).

There are no products that are specifically designed to keep grout water tight. There are impregnators (as I've listed in my previous post) that will help to maintain the grout, but when push comes to shove, shouldn't be necessary to have a successful installation (as mentioned by other members).

[SABoyt]

The moral of this story is that CRAP HAPPENS. Even when best practices are used and due diligence is performed to obtain the best results. "Some days, the Dragon wins"
it has to be the fault of the clear seal.
__________________
Mike Skala
Grouterra.com

I don't think we have come to that conclusion. It still looks like the problem might be associated with the sealer but not a failure of sealer. I think most of us have agreed that the problem seems to be what i stated in post #3 of this thread. That the water is wicking from below and it was allowed to do so probably because the sealer was "prevented" from adhering to the grout or caulked area. If the sealer cannot be properly applied, that does not mean that it failed. My theory that the petroleum products in the caulk got into the grout and prevented bonding would explain this. This does not mean that he built an inferior shower that is holding on by a sealer thread, or that the sealer failed. It just failed to bond because of outside circumstances.

Do most people in this industry put too much faith in sealers? YES. But they do have their place. I happen to believe that other than in a shower there is no better protection anywhere for grout than a good topical color seal product, period.

[MDS]

...but not a failure of sealer...the water is wicking from below

I'm not convinced of that. Since he found the caulk to be fully set. Maybe if it was tiled to the floor, but the bottom of the tile is sitting on a plastic pan. Where is all that water coming from at the bottom, that is wicking up, if not through the grout?

My theory that the petroleum products in the caulk got into the grout and prevented bonding would explain this.

Not many "petroleum products" in a latex caulk and the little (if any) plasticizer in there would never migrate that far up the grout.

I happen to believe that other than in a shower there is no better protection anywhere for grout than a good topical color seal product, period.

:tup2: I totally agree. But let me add there is not much worse than a really bad colorseal job, e.g. a DIY sealer applied over a floor not properly prepared.

[SABoyt]

Mike i wasn't saying that it migrated that far, rather that it blocked a small area of the grout right along the contact line from absorbing sealer. That is just a theory and could be totally off base. But it would explain why the water wicked up and the sealer held it in. If the sealer was not working, it would not take two weeks to dry out.

Check the data on that caulk, it contains petroleum. Just a theory. I respect your opinion on this. The goal of course is not to be right, but to help Flyn. :D