Cash for Clunkers (CARS)

[MudMaker]

I was gonna comment on Art's statement bout Cash for Clunkers but thought I'd post it separately rather than derail another thread like I sometimes do...
Is anyone going to take advantage of the new government offer to buy your old clunker and give you between $3500 and $4500? The old clunker will be made into a subcompact car by crushing it.
This means that all tax payers will be financing your purchase..
Is anyone gonna go for it?? I may.. I have a 95 Olds Aurora that qualifies as a clunker - 18 MPG combined highway and city...:)

Cash for Clunkers (http://www.cars.gov/)

[Sponsored Links]

[sandbagger]

the program should have very little bearing on a decision to buy a new vehicle unless you are already in the market and plan to buy anyway. It would take a very large MPG differential to see any real benefit to shelling out 20K or more.

[ddmoit]

My '92 Dodge Spirit exceeds the mpg requirement - who knew I was already green?

I used this goofy law as an economic teaching example for my kids (we had 10 minutes to kill before being seated at a restaurant; I made it seem like 20:tongue:).

First, anytime an asset of any value is purposely being destroyed, you know it's a bad economic idea

The government is touting the plan as a green economic stimulus. I don't know how "green" it actually is, but it is quite the reverse of economic stimulus.

It seems like stimulus if you count only the side of the equation where new cars are being built to suit the plan. It falls apart when you look at the other side of the equation.

The government is handing out as much as $4500 per car. Where does this money come from? The government produces nothing, so it must do one of three things: Borrow it, confiscate it from someone else, or print it. Each of these choices has negative economic consequences that exceed any benefit.

There is yet another unintended consequence (probably more if I bother to think on it long enough). The cars that are turned in to be destroyed are likely to have market values within a certain price range. For the sake of argument, let's say that most of them would sell for $1000 to $2000. By removing these cars from the market, a supply shortage is created. That means that the price (via the law of supply and demand) for the remaining similar cars will go up. Guess who is hurt most by this price increase?

Politicians will have their pictures taken with the auto workers whose jobs are helped by this program. But, no politicians will pose with the poor souls who are now walking and perhaps now unemployed because they have been priced out of transportation that they can afford.

[sandbagger]

By removing these cars from the market, a supply shortage is created. Dan, I don't believe this is an accident. I also believe they'll be bulldozing housing for the very same reason if they can ever figure out a way to get away with it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/5516536/US-cities-may-have-to-be-bulldozed-in-order-to-survive.html

[ddmoit]

http://www.nwi.com/articles/2009/07/01/news/top/doc44181438757e2beb862575e60004178f.txt

GARY | U.S. Sen Evan Bayh announced Tuesday he is asking Congress for $24.7 million in federal stimulus funds to demolish 1,124 abandoned houses and businesses throughout Gary.

[MudMaker]

again.. Elections have consequences..:D

[MudMaker]

Dan.. There are many things wrong with this program as you have listed and proly even more unintended consequences.. but... It's there and ya might as well take advantage of it if'n ya can.. and.. if'n I can - I will.. There won't be much of this administrations actions that will benefit me at all.. so's ya take what ya can when you can get it.. :D

[ddmoit]

I wouldn't fault anyone from taking advantage of the program, Frank.

I suspect that most of us here have paid our share of taxes. Good for you if you can get some back.

None of my current vehicles qualify, and I don't want to buy a new vehicle right now. I just bought a used one today.

[sandbagger]

I've pretty much decided that I've purchased my last new vehicle. That was 2006 and it's paid off, but it just doesn't make sense. I've always rationalized it because I keep them 10+ years, but the problem is I am pretty much required to keep the vehicle that long for it to make sense. So I do a LOT of research. But if I miss something and really don't like the vehicle after a couple of years I'm stuck. OTOH, if you buy a 2-yr old vehicle smart (ie, from owner) and don't like it your loss is minimal (maybe nothing) if you sell.

So when you get that check from your clunker rebate, just remember that you have your own personal share of a canceled Missile Defense program. :stirpot:

[ddmoit]

I bought my last new car in 1994. I expect I'll be able to say that the rest of my life.

[Jim Farrell Tiler]

sounds like greenie bullshit to me, New Zealand is full of American cars from the 40s to the 70s but most American cars from the early 80s on are pretty horrible

[MudMaker]

Ok Dan.. Ya had the 03 Escape for a while now, how's it doin?? :)

[Hamilton]

If they are going to continue to bail out the auto makers heres an idea:
Cash for your track hack. Give these HO's $3500 -$4500 towards their next
properly built shower.:usflag: I'll even give you a discount like the furniture
companies do. Raise the price 40% and then advertise a 20% sale!~ J/K of
course :p

[ddmoit]

I was against this program from the get-go, but canceling it now is precisely the kind of chaos that the economy does not need right now. I've seen Chrysler and Ford ads that are tied to this program. Those ad campaigns alone cost tons of money.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090731/ap_on_go_ot/us_cash_for_clunkers_8

[MudMaker]

Seems like the Govm'nt can't tell how many cars have been sold, even though the Dealerships call in on each vehicle... Is this an example of how efficient the Gov't can be??? :crazy:
and we expect them to handle our health care??? :shrug:

[cx]

I have a 95 Olds Aurora that qualifies as a clunker - 18 MPG combined highway and city...Well, if that's the criterion, I got me a 2005 Toyota Tacoma 4wd peekup that qualifies as a clunker. It'd be damn proud to git 18 mpg. Downwind. Downhill. In 2wd. :(

Seems like I aughta git more'n forty-five-hunnert for it, though. :D

[MudMaker]

Well, looks like the govm'nt will be giving the CARS Program a transfusion.. 2 Billion with a "B"... Seems like when you let people keep more of their own money, they are inclined to buy stuff... (FAIR TAX) Now I know Dan will have a few words to say about where they $4500 is coming from, but the way I look at it is I GAVE $4500 (over $4500) in taxes this year and this way I gets to keep it a little of it, or at least gits some back... :yipee:
Looking at the Honda Accord.. (4 cyl or 6cyl???) What do ya'll think?? Coming from a 33 year Retarred employee from G.M.... :D

A fella pulled into my driveway yesterday in a 30's Chrysler (pristine) and told me he was gonna get a new car and I asked him if he was gonna trade it for the Cash For CLunkers... He said no... :D
Here is what they will be destroying.. I hate that this will be destroyed but could only get about $1000 to $1500 for it anyway..
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh21/zengel442/IMG_3410.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh21/zengel442/IMG_3409.jpg

[Dave Taylor]

Enjoy my new Honda Mud. :---)

[sandbagger]

the only "good" news about the source of the money is that they didn't just print more. I heard they just diverted some that was originally allocated for one of those silly "green jobs" things. I'm in favor of diverting it all, when it comes to that sort of stupidity.

[John K]

So you turn in your clunker that was paid for, and then get yourself a beautiful new car with payments. Whoo Hoo! More debt for the Americans.:suspect:

[MudMaker]

Ya know.. I think of it this way.. I get to keep more of my money.. and yea.. yeaaaaa, I have a new loan but I also would have a new care too... Don't ever make any loan over 36 months and keep it comparatively low with a good down payment..
I see this program as a pre-curser for what happens if you get to keep more of your own money.....
"FAIR TAX"
Why can't Congress see this??? This seems to be the only program that has been successful.. WHY?? This clearly shows that if people can keep more of their own money - they will spend and STIMULATE the economy.. People stimulate the economy - not gov'mt.. :D
I also have to say that I am against the way this program is structured.. I think I should have been allowed to KEEP my tax money not given back to me by the government.. but ya takes what ya can when can... :D

[Shooter]

The Government is watching you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAOBlqUqUZ8

[ob1kanobee]

Welcome to the new world order!

[MudMaker]

Vaaalleeee interestling... but schtooped.. I been seized by the govnm't and now they know all I'm doin....
My days are numbered.. farewell cruel world.. It's bin good to know ya... :D
Velcome Comrade - Heil O'bama..

Ya know what? I think this CARS Program is the precursor for a tax on the Gas Guzzlers among other extravagant toys... It's like - I gave you a chance to get rid of em - now ya hafta pay the piper.. :deal:

[Hamilton]

precursor for a tax on the Gas Guzzlers

Kinda sucks for us workin guys that need a TRUCK to haul heavy TILE :D

I broke a toyota tacoma's leaf springs trying to go that route after driving a Ford I put out to pasture due to old age and before I bought my Chevy.

[ddmoit]

I'm not sure who at the Wall Street Journal wrote this, but they should be promoted...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204313604574326531645819464.html

On the other hand, this is crackpot economics. The subsidy won’t add to net national wealth, since it merely transfers money to one taxpayer’s pocket from someone else’s, and merely pays that taxpayer to destroy a perfectly serviceable asset in return for something he might have bought anyway. By this logic, everyone should burn the sofa and dining room set and refurnish the homestead every couple of years.It's yet another example of the broken window fallacy.

[sandbagger]

and merely pays that taxpayer to destroy a perfectly serviceable asset ....it's actually worse than that. I believe it requires that the vehicles be destroyed and prohibits selling the parts. That's dumb. Anybody who knows anything about cars knows that a vehicle is worth far more as parts than the intact vehicle. The car thieves certainly know it. :nod: The program could actually recoup some of the costs if they just sold the parts at salvage. But then again, that would be too much like capitalism. :nya:

[MudMaker]

Actually the engine is terminated.. Tranny and the rest are up for grabs... Dealers have to use NHTSA's Disposal facilities list to dispose of them - not the ELVS list OR a Certified Salvage Auction.. :D

sooooo, somebody will be salvaging parts I believe... I wanted to take them off the car and do it myownself but am getting considerable opposition as most Dealers are hesitant because of the hoops they have to go through and it may just interfere with going through one of them...

cutnpaste
Salvage Auctions

Instead of transferring a CARS trade-in vehicle directly to a disposal facility, a dealer is allowed to transfer the vehicle to a salvage auction. A salvage auction receiving a CARS trade-in vehicle must certify that it will dispose of the trade-in vehicle in accordance with the regulations.

There is no list of eligible salvage auctions. However, the salvage auction must make specific certifications for each CARS trade-in vehicle it receives (see the link to the Salvage Auctions Certifications below). A dealer may not transfer a CARS trade-in vehicle to a salvage auction unless the dealer receives the signed certifications from the salvage auction.

The certifications, which are legally binding on the salvage auction, include a certification that the auction sale will be limited solely to disposal facilities that appear on the NHTSA Disposal Facilities List. There are other required certifications, and dealers and salvage auctions should read all of them carefully to understand what is required of them. The regulations also require the salvage auction to obtain certifications from the disposal facility to which it transfers the CARS trade-in vehicle, just as the dealer would be required to do if it transferred the vehicle directly to a disposal facility.

[HammerMill88]

I'm surprised the libs aren't in an uproar over this...doesn't it seem that the people hurt the most are the poor who can only afford the $800 car that is now worth $4,500 to the taxpayers?

If I were the homies looking for a new ride on which to put some $4,500 rims, I would be marching in the streets!:scratch:

[Hamilton]

doesn't it seem that the people hurt the most are the poor who can only afford the $800 car

Well if the whole scheme were intentional they would have to run it quite a bit longer to get all the clunkers off the streets. It sure is a possibility. What better way to re-rope people into new credit agreements(chains)?

[MudMaker]

Jack - good point.. but the difference here is that the Community Organizers aren't demanding that each car buyer is offered a new car no matter of ability to pay back the money loaned.. and you don't have ACORN demanding that certain car buyers get loans.. Hopefully all car loans will be granted on ability to pay..

Nother thing... There is an endless amount of RED TAPE that Dealerships have to go through to process a single car.. This slows them down.. Sales people are spending hours and hours filling out all the paper work to process a car.. Congress has not made this process very friendly.. I visited a Dealership yesterday and the salesman said the Government could have made it sooooo much easier if they had only used VIN numbers rather than make them fill out a complete description of the vehicle being turned it.. Insurance Companies do it - why can Congress?

[ob1kanobee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icHGSiT1jEw

[sandbagger]

I don't even have to watch the video, Ben - Max Motors has been around for a long time. He's (Muller) a real character. He's also very good at what he does - sell cars. Max had to stop the outright gun giveaway, so now he just gives you a $450 coupon to certain, shall we say, "preferred" merchants. The best part of the video is the CNN news babe trying to corner him with her liberal BS. I grew up just north of Butler. The news babe had no idea what she was getting herself into. :lol1:

It just so happens that Max was interviewed by a local talk show this morning. He hates the program. He said 4 of his best people spent 11 hours trying to get the first car registered for the rebate. (that's 44 manhours). They gave up. The guvmint says it will give them $50 for each car processed. :bang:

Can you imagine trying to sign up for guvmint healthcare? :suspect:

[ob1kanobee]

Art,
I thought the guy was just genius in the way he answered that newscaster. He really put her in her place. I like him. I would buy a car from him. Seems like a pretty good guy.

[sandbagger]

you can buy a car from him, Ben. :nod: In the interview he said he has sold to customers in 46 states and several countries. Claims he'll deliver the car to your door and you never have to leave your house. THAT is customer service!!

[ddmoit]

Outside the insane world of government stat keeping, an SUV leads the list of most purchased vehicle as a result of "Cash from Clunkers".

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/07/autos/cash_for_clunkers_sales/index.htm?cnn=yes

[John K]

That guy was great!! I would definetly buy from him!:bow:

[ob1kanobee]

Is there any evidence that getting a more fuel efficient car actually reduces consumption? I mean there is a an assumption in this clunker program that everyone's need is constant so efficiency results in savings. In fact, many people want better efficiency because they want to drive more and go more places which they couldnt when they had the clunker. (for you economist types, I am asking if there is not an "elasticity of demand" here). So now people have a disincentive to drive less or to use public transportation more. Is this what we wanted.

I dont know. I am just saying I dont know if there is data here to go with their philosophy. Similarly, you can hypothesize that more preventive care results in cost savings and all the politicians say that because it sounds groovy. In fact, the data is to the contrary. Increased preventive care brings more people into the system and results in much more treatment than otherwise would have occurred. Note that I am not saying there should not be more preventive care. I am just saying if the rationale is that there will be a reduction in aggregate costs, then there is no data to support that- even if it results in savings for some individuals who get early intervention.

Lot of fluffy economic models floating around in this socialist crap. Why dont we send everyone a check for 500 dollars to buy a new refrigerator and be surprised at how it increases refrigerator sales. Why don't we just send everyone a check for everything. Free stuff is good. I like free stuff.

Why aren't we sending a similiar clunker check to people who have clunkers that are fuel efficient so they can get a new one. That way we would be rewarding those who have already been demonstrating the desired behavior. But no, tis not the socialist way. Instead you sell your old corolla to get a inefficient clunker and then trade that in.to get a new corolla. What a crock.

[sandbagger]

Is there any evidence that getting a more fuel efficient car actually reduces consumption?none whatsoever. In fact, it probably increases consumption in the long run as people adjust to the new "freedom" of a car that goes farther on a gallon of gas.Why dont we send everyone a check for 500 dollars to buy a new refrigerator and be surprised at how it increases refrigerator sales.Why don't we let them keep the $800 or so it takes out of their pockets to "rebate" that 500? Never mind - we'd prolly see our taxes increased to pay unemployment for all those gov'mint paperpushers who would lose their jobs. :bang:

[ddmoit]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance178.html

Now that the Democrats have regained complete control of the government, many conservatives are looking to the Republicans in Congress to save us from the socialism and fascism of the Democrats. As we saw when Clinton was president, many Republicans have started talking, and some have started acting, like the conservative advocates of liberty and less government they claim to be. Will the Republicans save us?

Don’t count on it.

So why am I so pessimistic? Because I actually check how the Republicans in Congress vote instead of just listening to their free-market, limited government, and anti-Democratic rhetoric, that’s why.

[ddmoit]

The unintended consequences are starting to pile up...

http://newsok.com/clunker-plan-crushes-used-parts-supplies/article/3391664?custom_click=lead_story_title

The government’s Cash for Clunkers program has left some auto salvage yard owners angry and confused.

[MudMaker]

Yep.. along with mechanics havin 750,000 less cars to work on and fix.. :D

[ob1kanobee]

Read the article Dan

This is an absolute outrage.............................:bang:

OK, is there anything we can do to impeach these guys? This administration is just getting out of hand.

[sandbagger]

I think it's safe to say that - knowing the enviro-wacko influence on the left - that the consequences in the OK article are very intended. :noid:

[Shaughnn]

Looks like they were able to find a little innovation, after all? All it took was someone to put a fire under their asses, I guess? Only a few months after telling us all that higher fuel standards would ruin them, they seem to have had this technology sitting on their desks this whole time???

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009639095_apusgmvoltmileage.html

Shaughnn

[sandbagger]

I prefer something with a little more room and passenger protection.....

http://www.rasertech.com/news/press-releases/raser-100-mpg-electric-hummer-at-plug-in-2009 :wohoo:

[MudMaker]

Let's see how well they sell in the market place... 40k I believe

[ddmoit]

Given GM's and the government's track records, I will hold my applause for the Volt until an actual model delivers real-world results. I will applaud loudly if given good cause.

[sandbagger]

GM has been teasing the market with the Volt for a long time. I believe someone taking orders from Obama has pushed GM into what is obviously a very premature announcement. Please read the whole article Shaughnn posted before you accuse me of bashing "good" news that would help Obama.

The problem - as it always is with electric cars - is the battery. Near the bottom of the piece you find these little clues GM is simulating tests to make sure the new lithium-ion batteries last 10 years, Posawatz said, as well as testing battery performance in extremely hot and cold climates.

"We're further along, but we're still quite a ways from home," he said. "We're developing quite a knowledge base on all this stuff. Our confidence is growing.""Confidence" is growing? :lol1:

(translation: we'll be darned lucky to get 5 years.)

[ddmoit]

Here's an article that has the audacity to suggest that consumers have a finite supply of income at their disposal.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/940088ae-8830-11de-82e4-00144feabdc0.html

Is it possible that instead of stimulating the economy, the Cash for Clunkers program is merely providing incentive for folks to spend their meager pile of money on one thing at the expense of another?

It actually wouldn't be so bad if the plan had no net effect on the economy. But, because the government is redistributing wealth in the form of incentive payments, it will have a net negative effect on the economy. That's what happens when the people who make the money don't get to spend it.

Notice that the guy from Ford thinks the program is swell. It's true that the program is benefiting his industry - at least in the short term.

However, we cannot simply judge something on its positive effects while ignoring the negative effects at the same time. That is the equivalent of saying that Hitler was a swell guy because of the autobahns and Volkswagens.

[sandbagger]

demand for cars is actually fairly predictable over the long term (say, 3 yrs). Incentives have always done nothing more than move purchases forward at the expense of sales later.

[MudMaker]

Looks like the Program is slowin down a little.. I hate to say it, but I think I will be pickin up a vehicle on Thursday.. Don't think I can turn down the $3500 FREE Govnm't money...:D I just loves Govnm't money!!!! :D
Pics to follow jest like Opie... :shades:

[opiethetileman]

yeah I got 4500 for the white ford 196k miles on her with two rods thru the oil pan. it had to be driven on lot and trust me it i drove it and put 80 wgt gear oil in it to drive it. it was fun son cause its sold for 4500.00 bucks can ya say SWEEEEETTTTTT

[java]

I was part of the pit crew for this race truck last sat. nite.

Took 2nd in 12sec index class.

[Bellsfloors]

Just curious,

Is this cash going to be taxable income that has to be declared for 2009 for the average joe?

If the vehicle was a work vehicle and was written off for business before then I would guess taxable income will be the surprise in April....

Thoughts??

[ddmoit]

Good question, Tracy - I don't know the answer.

Taxing it would be like taxing the money in a lost wallet that was returned to you.

[MudMaker]

Is the credit subject to being taxed as income to the consumers that participate in the program?

NO. The CARS Act expressly provides that the credit is not income for the consumer.

[java]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5oftRgd9VY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFtEw7G40nw&feature=related

[sandbagger]

The CARS Act expressly provides that the credit is not income for the consumer.heads will roll..... :gerg:

[MudMaker]

Looks like the CARS Program is shuttin down on Monday.. Dealers ain't gettin paid by the Governm't.. Dealers up in arms and the Bamster says the Program is a "victim of it's own success".. Victim... hummmmm not poor planning? not underestimated?, Victim... that word comes up a lot with the Libs.. :suspect:

Gotta go n pick up my Klunker replacement..

[opiethetileman]

yeah I took advantage of it. They take the 4500 off the sticker not at the bottom end. it states in paperwork that way. I think it should be the same as a cash down payment

[ddmoit]

They take the 4500 off the sticker...Seriously??? They start from the imaginary number that is the "sticker price"? Who negotiates from the sticker price?

Not that I know anything about buying new cars - I haven't done that since 1993, and probably never will again.

[opiethetileman]

yeah its stated in the rules of the program for cfc

[MudMaker]

You make your best deal and then it's taxed and then the $4500 comes off AFTER tax has been added...
Opie.. check out your taxes and see if it was calculated on the total you negotiated the price down to.. The govmn't wants those taxes on the full amount.. :deal:

[MudMaker]

Opie... I stand corrected and apologize... :o
I could not take the $3500 off the negotiated price, but maybe you could have... and saved sum tax moola.. :D



Do I have to pay State or local sales tax on the amount of the CARS program credit?

MAYBE. The question of whether a consumer must pay State or local sales tax on the amount of the CARS program credit depends on the sales tax law of each State or locality. Consumers should review the law of their respective States or consult a tax advisor to answer this question.

[sandbagger]

Do I have to pay State or local sales tax on the amount of the CARS program credit?Actually, yes. :crap:

This is one of the several things I hate about rebates. Since the rebate occurs after the sale you pay tax on the sticker (or negotiated) price. That has the effect of taxing the rebate.

So with Tucson's 8% sales tax that $4500 rebate is only $4140 in you pocket. Your mileage may vary.

I'm pretty much convinced that rebates are simply a conspiracy of Big Government tax-happy Liberals.

[MudMaker]

Where are ya Dan.. Got ma interest up...:)

[opiethetileman]

I be rite here I have paperwork in front of me????

[MudMaker]

As you were soldier.. :bow:

[MudMaker]

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced Thursday that after a wildly successful run, the cash for clunkers program will come to a close on Monday, August 24th at 8 p.m. EST.

wildly successful run???? Well, sure.. You let people keep some of their hard earned money and yea.. They purchase stuff!!!
Oh.. I don't look at it as your money.. I look at it as money they TOOK from me earlier this year... :D

[opiethetileman]

well mud if it makes ya feel better you to drive the new car. Or what part do you want me to call yours. hey I cant complain to fixthe truck a/c the front end and the motor was going to be over 5400 bucks so i was like trade it in. but it comes out of the top at the line that says less used car aloowance

[ddmoit]

Different product category, same nonsense....

http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/53979837.html

SOUTH BEND — It's the end of the road for the Cash for Clunkers program. Now the U.S. Department of Energy is adopting a similar effort called the Energy Star Appliance Rebate Program to boost sales in the struggling appliance industry, and $300 million in stimulus money will be available.

[opiethetileman]

I dont even want to know what other programs they are going to do. Can they have cash for taxes trade in your tax report for a different one.

[MudMaker]

The next Program will be "Cash for Organs"... You trade in your old one, but will hafta wait 6 months to get the new one..
Kinda like the old Army joke: today everbody gets a new change of under ware..
Joe you change with Bill.. John you change with...:(

[MudMaker]

but it comes out of the top at the line that says less used car aloowance

Then you got to shelter $4500 in taxes.. Good for you!!! :tup2:
Wish I coulda...

[MudMaker]

Or what part do you want me to call yours.

I want the steering wheel - you can have mine... :D
Here's the new Mud Wagon purchased on the CARS Program.. I can't fit the Mud Box in it though...
My clunker had 250 H.P. and the new one has 271 H.P. :devil2:


http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh21/zengel442/IMG_3449.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh21/zengel442/IMG_3450.jpg

[stullis]

Thanks for participating in a socialist program Frank. :shades:

[opiethetileman]

yeah here is the other cash for clunker ride.

[MudMaker]

Thanks for participating in a socialist program Frank.

When the Government gives out candy, it's difficult not to reach out and get some.. Your right Scott, this is how it begins, and it will be the Ultimate failure of this new fledgling experiment called "Capitalism".. We are experiencing the downfall of this great structure that was created by our Founders and are in freefall.. At least I can say that I lived in the Greatest Country in the world during my short time here on earth.. This is something my Grandkids may not be able to say..

Nice ride Opie.. I was originally going for economy and the $4500, but fell in love with the 271 HP..
Are we the only two Cash for Clunkers here??

[Dave Taylor]

.

[sandbagger]

(and you thought this thread was dead :D )

That's what Tom Sullivan estimated to be the real cost of the clunkers program. His method of getting that is simple and obvious, and pretty amazing it's been ignored.

It's simple. The Dems base their numbers on the assumption that ZERO cars would have been sold without the program. That, of course, is ludicrous. People always buy cars, and you must base the calculation on that baseline. In other words, the number you must use is the incremental boost from the program. Sure, it's an estimate, but people who follow the auto industry have a pretty good idea what the sans-clunker number would have been.

$24000 per incremental car sale. You tax dollars (and the Obama printing press) at work. :bang:

[MudMaker]

Yep Art.. I agree 24000%.. This is an indication of how the Health Care program will work.. If it's FREE money the masses will follow!!! :D You gonna go to Coverings next year in Orlando??

[Dave Taylor]

I wonder............

how many of them purchased vehicles were from foreign based company's like Honda?

The majority?

Soo' much fer' stimulating American owned auto manufacturers.

[sandbagger]

turns out Sullivan was commenting on a story by Edmunds.

http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/159446/article.html

and as we've now come to expect, the White House attacked the messenger, The White House claims that our analysis was based on car sales on Mars and that on Earth, the marketplace is connected. to which Edmunds calmly responded with more analysis.

http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/159486/article.html

kudos to Edmunds. These guys obviously know cars better than Obama. After all, that's how they've paid the bills for over 40 years. :tup2: