what type of stone is this, and sealant to use?

[wopachop]

wow i was horrified to see this...its my moms shower. have not been in this bathroom in years. its a steam shower.

im not sure what type of stone this is. any recommendations on what to seal those cracks with would be greatly appreciated.

i will scrape away whatever i need to. worried about damaging the stone.

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[GraniteGirl]

It's hard to say from the pictures, but it could be some kind of limestone. Doubt whether it is a travertine - not enough fill and no discernible pattern. Is that a crack coming up from the corner of the threshold to that knob-looking thing on the wall?

Also hard to say from the pictures, but I suspect filling the gaps would be the least of your worries. Are you having other issues related to the moisture coming through the shower?

Looks like it used to be a nice shower?

[wopachop]

the close up pics are the inside of the curb. but there are many areas that look like that.

its an upstairs bath and there is no water marks on the 1st story ceiling.

i have no idea how long its looked like this. hoping that being a steam shower and thus requiring better moisture barrier is what is possibly saving her from disaster.

[ceramictec]

I doubt that's a stone.

it's porcelain tile on the floor so I am thinking some type of Corian or laminate paneling.

[GraniteGirl]

What does it feel like? Does it feel soft and chalky or slick and plasticky?

[ob1kanobee]

Looks to me like Jerusalem Stone Light :shrug:

The shower floor mini bevels look like they were hand done and cut from the field. What is on the outside floor? I can't really see but it looks like the same material on the outside floor?????????????????

[wopachop]

it feels slick to the touch. cant believe im seeing mold though!!! my ma is crazy about keeping things clean. i guess when something happens slowly over time you dont really notice. im ready to puke!!! :sick:
this crack is on the shower bench. then a close up pic of the crack.
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the shower screen is pretty trick...i was hand cut to let water flow through. man its nasty though. covered in junk.
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looks like there are two slabs put together here. its the corner of a tub that is made in the same material as the walls.
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finally the bath floor tile. i put my keys down to give a sense of size.
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[wopachop]

oh yeah forgot to say....

the outside corner of the curb has some loose grout. when i move it with my finger i hear squish squish and water comes up.

i dont live at this house just visiting. so im wondering how long i need to let this sucker dry out before i come back to repair it? there is a guest bath she can use


this forum is a life saver thanks for helping

[doitright]

Hi Tony :)

You're dealing with a limestone. I'm not sure about the shower pan material. Put some vinegar on it, and see if it fizzes or etches. The tub deck ledge (?) is laminated, as you pointed out. The material on the floor looks similar to one thats on my website. I don't have the name handy.

The curb needs to be totally removed. Check for screws through the CBU, and whether or not there is a prepitch under the pan liner.

I'm also concerned about the darkening on the walls. Some limestones won't return to their original color, even after drying out. More than likely this shower is lacking surface waterproofing. Since it's a steam shower, it probably wasn't constructed properly either.

This shower has no easy fix. You might be able to put a tourniquet on it to stop the bleeding. :eek:

[wopachop]

oh wow. my mom is gonna love this.

so i need to completely remove the curb. can i do that without breaking the limestone somehow? i picture me trying to pry it up at the seems and chipping the heck outta the stone.

found out my mom has lived here since 04 and she has never waterproofed. the bath itself is estimated to be about 8-9 years old.

[GraniteGirl]

If it's "squishing" when you touch it, it probably is not adhered very solidly. Carefully try to cut out the remaining silicone(?) in the seams and gently pry the curb up. Try to avoid stressing small points - i.e. in stead of using a flat screw driver to try and lift the stone, use a rigid, wide putty knife. Do not use the adjoining stone for leverage either. Use a block of wood - it would prevent damage to the stone too. It should come up pretty easy.

Waterproofing is not something your mom could have done after the fact either. It should have been done before the cladding went on the shower walls and floor.

I'm with John - it really looks like limestone.

[wopachop]

sorry ill be more clear. the squishing sound is just when i move pieces of loose grout...not the actual stone.

what about the darkening of the stone? i though john was saying that was from lack of surface waterproofing on top the stone.

this will sound dumb but are you guys saying to remove the stone from the curb or to remove the actual curb itself?

[doitright]

Hi Tony :)

Adriana is correct. The waterproofing should have been done prior to the installation of the stone.

As far as the curb goes, I would start with attempting to remove the stone first, but I doubt you are going to be able to save it. The next step is to remove the entire curb. Take pictures every step of the way.

[wopachop]

10/4....i know its a nice bathroom but my mom doesnt really have that much cash with the way the economy is going. i will do all the labor for free of course....just thinking that stone looks darn expensive.

i guess my question to you pros is how bad of an idea would it be to just scrape out all grout. then use compressed air to blow out the joints. then let the shower air dry for a month or two. then just regrout and "hope" all that water made its way down the weep holes.

im worried once the curb comes out you guys are going to say...."yep that entire shower needs to be replaced." that is not really an option for her right now.

[doitright]

Hi Tony :)

There's no reason to not remove the top curb tiles as a minimum inspection point. Your method is only a bandaid if something is wrong. There may be a simple fix vs. potential long term structural problems. It's up to you if that's a viable option. I have done many successful "curb only" repairs.

Do what you fear the most, and you will control fear. ;)

[wopachop]

right on man. the shower bench is just as bad as the curb though...and the joint between the floor and walls is not looking too hot either.

so im trying to decide if removing and most likely breaking the curb stone is even worth it.

are you thinking just remove the curb stone to see how the shower was constructed? that way you will know if other areas are prolly ok if the curb looks ok?

[wopachop]

well i came back up to my moms house. was planning to remove the top curb stone but forgot she has the glass enclosure. i have zero experience with those things.

so i could try to remove the inside curb piece. but i dont see how to do that without cracking the sucker. its one solid piece.

still trying to determine if its worth removing. because a complete shower rebuild is not an option for her right now. any thoughts?

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[GraniteGirl]

Sorry to say - the white deposits on the walls on either side next to the curb does not look too good.

Don't know what to suggest. Any temp fix would be a mere band-aid. :stick:

[wopachop]

i know that stuff is nasty!!! i think its either minerals or soap scum. my mom has a cleaning lady come by when shes at work. not sure how good of a job is getting done.

my mom was disgusted herself...she says she showers in the morn without her contacts in. looking close with 20/20 she was like OMG!!!

[Davestone]

If there was no bench problems one option would be to use a grinder and cut a level line slightly above the curb all the way around the shower.Then take out that pieces of stone and the whole curb.then repair the pan and mud,and curb then reset some crema marfil at the bottom of the shower and curb.But the seat is probably not waterproofed and is a problem also.

[Stone Dude]

proper fix? tear out

you will spend more time and effort right now for little to no results. start saving up a for a new shower and leav it alone.

plugging up those holes now wont do you any good.

at the very least you could stop using it, and wait up to several months for it to dry out then seal the joints. Even the then, the stone looks like it has started to spall, i doubt it will stop.

sorry to say, but this one is gone.

[wopachop]

my mom had a professional come out and give his advice. he was pretty cool and honest. he knocked around and said the shower is fine and that i should just regrout it with some epoxy.

this is a steam shower. why does everyone seem to think its a goner? the pro that came over was a younger guy but he seemed to be very knowledgeable. if it was constructed properly would it withstand all the water that got passed the grout joints? the pro could of totally sold my mom on rebuilding the entire shower but he was honest and said nope just have me regrout...

any thoughts?

[ccarlisle]

If it's a steam shower, then the traditional safeguards used in waterproofing a regular shower are almost doubled because of the added humidity levels and heat in there. Put it this way, if there are shortcomings in the waterproofing of a regular shower, you'll get by for a year - but you won't get by more than 6 months in a steam shower.

Just because some guy knocks on a wall and says all is OK is not sufficient evidence. What's his experience? He may not even know. And most of us will tell you that your waterproofing is not doing its job giving you the results you see without seeing it but I doubt our opinions would change if we were there. Seen to many of them for that...

I know you are trying to rationalize what this guy said, but no-one fixes water leaks in a shower with epoxy and earns a living with a reputation in the future.

And, yes, properly built steam showers can withstand pretty much anything. For years. No matter what the grout or tile.

Because the water and the vapour are controlled.

[condo-owner]

i am NOT pro, by any means. but, i would say = money is very tight. the shower is not leaking to the room below. = don't use the shower for many months. get the old grout out . fix all loose tiles. regrout . i would let it sit for at least 6 months.

this may bandaid it good enough for it last as long as she needs. then the new owners could replace it with what they want.

[doitright]

Hi Tony,

Let's get something straight here. You hopefully came here looking for professional advice. That's what most of us are giving you. We are all entitled to our opinions though.

If there were a proper way to fix this, we would tell you. None of us are going to get this job either, therefore have no motive to advise you to do inspect deeper for this or for that.

If this is a steam shower, do you know if:

1. There is insulation behind all walls and the ceiling?
2. The walls are mud or CBU?
3. There is surface waterproofing on everything?
4. There are expansion joints filled with sealant at the perimeter of the ceiling (under the stone)?
5. There is a prepitch under the pan liner?
6. What type of pan liner was used and how high does it go?
7. How the bench was constructed & waterproofed?

If you don't know the answers to just one of those questions, without the proper method and materials being implemented, you could potentially have the opportunity for wood rot and mold. If that's not a concern to you and/or your mom, just leave the shower as is and recaulk (after it's dry). Personally, I don't recommend going that route.

Has anyone taken a moisture meter while doing onsite evaluations? Opened a wall behind the bench? Opened the ceiling below (if available). Or have they shown you the guidelines referred to in the TCNA manual? How about any references to the MIA Architectural Stone Design Manual? Perhaps referred to solutions offered by the NTCA?

Anything short of that is only guessing to something they don't know about.

I was recently called in to caulk two showers because the vertical corners were cracking on one, and the curb grout was cracking on the other. One of the showers was also leaking into an adjoining unit. If the floors weren't exposed (a new commercial build out), nobody would have known about the leak. After dissecting each of the showers, I found them both to be leaking. They were only two years old. Improper methods and materials were used.

I'm performing a repair up to the wainscot chair rail tile. By the time all is said and done, we could have demoed the shower and saved the client some money (but there were additional concerns at hand). Fortunately the client has the $$$ to do it.

I am also doing a final report of what was done wrong on install. I have a list of approximately 12 items that needed to be addressed.

I'm only sharing this with you because too many people shut their eyes to one of the most important areas of there house / condo / apartment / hotel etc., that can have the potential of causing severe structural damage, or even potential health issues.

I suggest that you and your mom carefully consider what step to take next, and who you're going to hire to do the work.

[wopachop]

holy moly john that was some good advice. the other side of her shower is the guest shower. so i cant get into the wall. i think its a bad idea....but we are going to just band aid it for now. she cant afford a whole new shower. ill epoxy grout it and hope there is minimum damage underneath.

the old grout is coming up easy. but the calcium soap scum stuff on the floor is very hard to get off. im using a small metal puddy knife but its scratching the floor cause i have to push really hard.

any ideas to scrape or sand off that calcium?

[dbitton]

Tony,

Use some single edged razor blades to scrape the calcium deposits, then get some wet sand paper, maybe: 80, 120, 220, 400 grits to hone the Jerusalem stone if it's been scratched. You may need to play with the sandpaper grits a little to get the hone right... higher or lower grits depending on what it needs... In your case, close enough sounds like it will work.

Use hot water to wipe epoxy grout. At the end of it all get a good silicone impregnating sealer and soak the whole shower with it: http://www.regentstoneproducts.com/item_detail2.aspx?ItemCode=REGSILCNIMPR


If there are dark spots in the stone where it seems stained you can try a baking soda poultice to pull the stain out.... this is usually about 80/20 odds in limestones though... If you do try this, make sure you do it before the stone is sealed! :P

Sorry about the shower, seems like it's a big mess, hopefully this advice is more what your looking for.

- Hey, just wanted to add that by sealing the shower you are not waterproofing it... it should help with further staining though...

[wopachop]

why would sealing not waterproof it? is it like the difference between water resistant and waterproof when dealing with watches?

i scraped out all the loose grout. but some grout remains. i dont have the expertise to tell what type of grout was originally used. but i wanted to use spectraLOCK pro where i removed the grout.

think applying spectraLOCK on top and next to unknown grout is a bad idea?

[doitright]

Hi Tony :)

Instead of something rigid like epoxy grout, I suggest using a silicone sealant such as Laticrete Latasil or TEC silicone sealant. Many colors to select from that will offer flexibility during movement of the structure. Otherwise you'll just have cracks at the epoxy grout joints. If you're dealing with metal studs and concrete slab, that's a whole different scenario.

[wopachop]

ah jeez. you replied 30 mins later and here i am about to install spectraLOCK pro tomorrow morn. i guess my mom can return it.

the gaps between the stone are DEEP. i pulled out grout that was 3/4" deep. the installers did do a good job of pushing that grout in at least.

i have always used silicone at changes of plane. for some reason i didnt want to do that. shoot.....not sure what to do

[doitright]

Hi Tony :)

Pick up some caulking backer rod to place in the joint, before the silicone.

[wopachop]

can anyone recommend a cleaning product to use on the entire shower before sealing?

[Davestone]

Depends on what you want to clean off,Tony.For basic dirt try a neutral cleaner,for real dirt and grease use an alkaline cleaner.For grout haze on a stone use an alkaline cleaner for polished stone,only use sulfamic, or other acid cleaners on tile.

[doitright]

Hi Tony :)

What have you done to date? :shades:

We would normally follow the procedures as suggested by Dave in post #27.

Final cleaning could be with a neutral pH cleaner, as long as no other contaminants remain on the surface. Otherwise a high alkaline cleaner followed by a rinse may be necessary.

[wopachop]

my mom has that limestone in the shower....and polished granite for kitchen counter tops. her friend convinced her to use 511 on the granite. but for the limestone we need to use porous plus.

do you guys see any benifit of using reg 511 on the granite instead of the leftover porous plus? thanks for any advice