Who Says So? [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

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bathroomremodeler
03-27-2009, 03:15 PM
Just trying to figure out what are legal requirements and what are more recommendations.

I understand that plumbing and local building codes are a "have too". But are TCNA and other organizations "have toos"?

What about manufacturer's recommendations. Should they be done to the manufacturer's recommendations just to keep warranty?

Specifically ...

1. Who says you need a pre-slope?
2. Who says you need backerboard screws or to tape CBU connections?
3. Who says moisture barrier?

I guess I'm getting at, was that Kerdi wasn't approved by local building codes until recently. However, if you wanted to offer your customer a "better thing" ... would you break local building codes and give them Kerdi? Or back many years when local codes stated it was still ok to use greenboard (but many of us realized the problems) ... if we decided to go with CBU instead of greenboard ... were we breaking rules?

If I come up with a better way to build a shower, but it doesn't follow some of the rules ... should I break the rules to give the customer a better shower?

Just learning

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jgleason
03-27-2009, 03:28 PM
I'm not a lawyer but basically - if you pull a building permit then you will need to get approval from the code enforcement person for whatever portions of the job require inspection. Just because you get approval does not necessarily mean what you've done is done correctly. All it means is you've satisfied some local bureaucracy.

As for following manufacturers recommendations or installation guidelines - you are under no legal obligation to do so. If your work doesn't satisfy the person paying you then you would typically need to prove that you followed normal and customary building practices. Blatantly disregarding clearly defined instructions on product installation would put you at a disadvantage.

Dave Gobis
03-27-2009, 07:15 PM
And thus far in my experience, lose if it ever went legal.

java
03-27-2009, 07:26 PM
Dave, I thought you said something like doing everything by the book all the time was impossible.

I have faith in my knowledge and abilities and can't deny bastardizing a few things. But no worries.

cx
03-27-2009, 07:31 PM
I understand that plumbing and local building codes are a "have too". But are TCNA and other organizations "have toos"? The TCNA is an organization of manufacturers of tile-related products, Dean. They have no real authority at all, but their Handbook of published installation methods carries weight throughout the industry. But those published methods are not rules, those are guidelines. You follow them (where possible) and you'll be on much more firm legal ground should a failure occur.What about manufacturer's recommendations. Should they be done to the manufacturer's recommendations just to keep warranty?Think that one through, Dean. Why ever would a manufacturer be inclined to, or even expected to honor a warranty if you did not follow their recommendations and instructions?Specifically ...

1. Who says you need a pre-slope?
2. Who says you need backerboard screws or to tape CBU connections?
3. Who says moisture barrier?
1. The plumbing code. That one's a rule.

2. The manufacturer. I'd call that one a manufacturers' requirement.

3. The tile industry as a group and many manufacturers of backer boards. That one I'd say is an industry and manufacturers' requirement.

Your number one is the only item there that is enforceable and the one most enforcement agency representatives are not even aware of.

Go figger. :rolleyes:

My opinion; worth price charged.

ob1kanobee
03-27-2009, 07:51 PM
CX, you are very wise man :bow:

cx
03-27-2009, 08:44 PM
Thanks, Ben, but if you really want tile wisdom, scroll up a couple posts to where it says Da Man. Dave Gobis been knowin' and teachin' the stuff I spout out here for more years than I been buildin' houses, even. A whole lot of my "wisdom" in this industry came directly from the Tile Buddha hisownself. :)

But some of it I had to give him money to git! :D

Dave Gobis
03-27-2009, 09:32 PM
What? CX, You looking for something extra in your pay envelope? Oh, yeah, that's right, they don't give pay envelopes anymore. Must be another reason.

And yes, I said there is no such thing as perfect. With standards and recommendations, anything less than perfect requires risk assessment. When you do something you shouldn't do, which is about every job, you take a risk. That is a business decision you made. What works is well known, what may work is less known, more or less.

This inspection and consulting stuff continues to both broaden my horizons and reaffirm my opinions. I would not have believed a year ago that there would be a back log of problem jobs waiting for attention. I have used my chipping hammer and Fein tool more in the last 6 months than the last 6 years. Consistently, as it always has been the case, standards and recommendations continue to win over "local building practices" in the legal circles. Some I feel really bad about even showing up on but it really isn't fair that a customer who hires a professional should lose thousands of dollars a few years later fixing the professionals work. I was on a snazzy pool with a bunch of decks in FL that has a 2.2 Million dollar price tag for replacement. That same week was a $63,000 limestone floor and another $162,000 deck. In each, the contractor (3 of them) was assessed liability for failure to follow reasonable care in following standards. This kind of stuff happens every week and it is the first many hear about standards. That's the real world. If you think your only liable for a year, think again.

ceramictec
03-27-2009, 09:54 PM
I was on a snazzy pool with a bunch of decks in FL that has a 2.2 Million dollar price tag for replacement. hmmmm, I didn't get a tip on the GC doing the new work :(

tilelayer
03-27-2009, 10:02 PM
when we build kerdi showers we let the inspector do a water test, they bash the product until they see it passes with flying colors.

java
03-27-2009, 10:04 PM
I wish we had water test and inspectors down here.

I'm sure it would send the hacks back down to Texas were they belong.:idea:

kevjob
03-27-2009, 10:28 PM
most plumbing inspectors I show the system to in person along with literature and a short tutorial from me, along with pan test they have no problem and several have said best system ever! IRC 2006 here in denver requires backer with correct screws, pre-slope if not kerdi, one reason I like denver.

Bill Vincent
03-27-2009, 11:27 PM
1. Who says you need a pre-slope?

IRC, UPC, TCNA, and ANSI

2. Who says you need backerboard screws or to tape CBU connections?

TCNA and CBU manufacturers. But both of those are common sense. You don't want the screws rusting out, and CBU is just like any other wall board in that the joints between the panels must be bridged.


3. Who says moisture barrier?

TCNA and ANSI

(although Mike Byrne will argue all day long that it's not necessary, and actually detrimental) :)

oogabooga
03-27-2009, 11:27 PM
Almost all the showers I do are curbless (that's just the market here), how do you water test that?

Rob.

ob1kanobee
03-28-2009, 02:39 AM
Dave, Just curious if that snazzy pool deck was the house of time share owner/developer David Siegel ?

The house has a big iron gate constructed all around it and the home sits on a lake front.

Dave Gobis
03-28-2009, 03:00 PM
Nope, a retired farmer from Iowa on Gordon Drive. It is sick how much money people have down there.

Ceramitec, you get involved in a job like that and you will be renting an apartment and washing cars for a living when you get done with it. That seems to be a big problem lately. Everyone wants work so bad they go outside their comfort area and financial abilities. The third guy on the redo is from West Palm. Besides, Davestone would have more rights, he lives with all them affluent folk, their neighbors.

cx
03-28-2009, 03:55 PM
Almost all the showers I do are curbless (that's just the market here), how do you water test that?Same inspector who doesn't know a pre-slope is required will be the one to point out that the plumbing code requires the drain to be two inches lower than the top of the curb, Rob. If no curb, then at least two inches below the floor outside the shower. You can do a flood test on that.

He'll generally be so knowledgeable, him being the representative of the compliance authority and all, that he might also point out that the curb or outside floor must also be two inches higher than the perimeter of the shower floor according to tile industry standards. It will sadden him greatly that he cannot somehow enforce that requirement, and that will darken his mood even further. :shades:

And there you'll be, without a leg upon which to stand eh?

Now, if you've made your shower of a size and layout to conform to the requirements of ADA accessibility standards, you can likely make him cringe and cower and agree to approve anything at all to guard his little fiefdom from even the hint of appearing insensitive to the needs of the handicapped, but in his cold little heart he'll swear to get you next time.

Unfortunately, you will not have come even close to ADA compliance, so his superior knowledge of the industry and code requirements will prevail and you'll be the one rigging up some sort of curb for your otherwise lovely shower to bring it into compliance. :(

I drop all my shower floor areas 5 1/2" into the slab on any new construction so I can build'em up however I want to most alla time make curbless, doorless showers, which my customers also just prue-dee love. :)

crete51
03-28-2009, 04:16 PM
$$$$$$ Gordon Drive.....very nice street $$$$$$$

ceramictec
03-28-2009, 04:44 PM
I hear ya Dave, sometimes it isnt good to do a redo since the owners or GC will be all over you watching you like a hawk.
plus your right with biting off more then your able to chew, we all learned the hard way.