Sealer Questions and Concerns

[jonblez]

We have newly installed Egyptian Golden Cream which most sources say is a marble. It is not highly polished. The pieces are 18X18 and are installed on a 15 year-old cement slab with 1/16th grout joints. Testing unfinished pieces with water indicated that this material is not very porous.

We have sealed a couple of rooms and have noticed that after some drying time the edges of the tile take on a very dull appearance. Testing with small drops of water indicates that these dull areas are sealed as well as the centers of the tiles which have a more glossy look to them.

The sealed tiles were given 10-12 days after installation to dry and were cleaned 24 hours in advance of the sealing. Our tile vendor thinks, without having actually seen the problem, that the dull edges are caused by an accumulation of excess sealant.

In doing the 2nd room, we were careful to leave the sealant on for only a minute and took particular care to remove all the sealant.

We would appreciate any and all input on this problem.

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[SABoyt]

511 is a petroleum based sealer. Even if you wiped it on the surface and immediately removed it, it would leave a film behind. This film is on the entire surface of your new tile. My experience and that of many others is that 511 will make your floors attract dirt. The residue is slightly sticky, thus attracting and holding onto the dirt. This is why 511 is not allowed in my vehicles! It is also a bear to strip this stuff from the surface and since it is impregnating, impossible to totally remove without diamond grinding. We often find DIY projects that use the 511 from HD as a sealer and afterward start having many problems with the floors getting much dirtier than before sealing.

As far as the cloudy edges go, they probably need to be buffed with a floor machine to remove the excess sealer that is collected. (buffing with a white or hogs hair pad is standard procedure for sealing floors for us. We never leave a sealing job until it is done). MOST OTHER sealers just require that you spray a little of the sealer on the cloudy spots and buff with a towel or floor machine for heavy concentration. You might give this a try to see if it will work for you. The sooner the better. Don't allow it to dry any longer than it has. If this doesn't work, try to get some TOG deep clean from (this old Grout). this will often be somewhat effective at removing it without stripping.

This is another reason that having a professional seal your tile and grout is a good idea. They have the knowledge and the equipment, and when something goes wrong, it's their situation to correct. Good luck.

[Davestone]

I would agree.Most people don't realize just how little some stones absorb sealers,in fact not benefiting from a sealer at all, then you have this problem.

[tilelayer]

i never knew that about 511 i always liked it cause its solvent based

[Steven Hauser]

There is nothing wrong with a solvent based impregnating sealer.

We chose solvent as our carrier medium.

The issue is probably resolved as the consumer changed their process to remove all excess sealer from the floor before moving on to the next task.

It doesn't take any special process to do this, just staying
with it until the surface is dry and clear looking.

Best wishes,

[Davestone]

Yeah, i think it was just wayyy too much sealer used especially overflow at the joints.

[coastalhp]

"It doesn't take any special process to do this, just staying
with it until the surface is dry and clear looking."

I would have to disagree. There very definitely is a proper process to effectively seal a surface, especially if you're working with quality sealers. There is also a knowledge base you should have to draw upon. You need to know your surface, you need to know your carrier and your solids content and when to use each as well as how much dwell time to allow. And you need to know how to use them. For instance, two lighter coats will beat out one heavy coat each and every time, and that, in itself, is a process one should know.

The only reason I bring this up is that, if I were a DIYer and read that there is no special process, I'd think I could just throw the stuff down on the floor, let it sit for as long as my patience lasted and then wipe up the puddles.

Knowing and following the correct process would avoid threads like this one.

[Davy]

I have seen stone that looked to be polished at one time and then honed, I assume at the factory. The chemical wasn't put on evenly and there were some areas of the tile that were honed more than others. Looking at the stone in a glare really made it show up. After sealing the stone, it seemed to show up even more. The tile store it was bought from paid to have the stone re-honed, looked great afterward. Just guessing but I wonder if that might be your problem. :)

[ben-e]

I usr 511 a lot, but after reading this I am thinking about switching. I had a similar problem recently when sealing a slate shower. I like "Mirra Matte" color enhancer, and this is why I use 511 impregnator. Both made by miricle. Anyhow, many of the tiles had a little white halo, or cloud around the edges. I decided that it was becaus the joint sucked the sealer, or enhancer away from the stone, leaving it more dull. Who knows? What I did do was add another coat of both 511, and mirra and it totally fixed the problem. It was the best solution I could hope for by a long shot. Has anyone else had bad experiences with miracle products like 511?

[justin savage]

We have experienced the halo with the mira matte -but only on slate and a second coating takes care of it. We mostly use miracle products and have not had any issues with the 511- we really try to apply evenly and wipe down really well -seems to work. justin

[SABoyt]

Ben- what you most likely did was to reactivate the sealer that was left on the surface, when you applied the second coat. The best re-wetting agent is usually the original chemical or agent that caused the problem. The haze was left behind sealer that when re-wet, once again became suspended.

It doesn't take any special process to do this, just staying
with it until the surface is dry and clear looking.
What does "staying with it" imply if not that there is a process that must be followed? The best way to get the surface clear is to buff. Manufacturers that sell to HOs do not want to say that because HOs don't usually have floor machines. It can be done by getting on your hands and knees and buffing with a clean white towel(if you have nothing better to do for the next 3 hours!) LOL

Testing unfinished pieces with water indicated that this material is not very porous.
Why apply an impregnating sealer to a non-porous surface? Because most tile stores love to sell sealer to everyone. Even if the stone doesn't need to be sealed. Has anyone considered the fact that some stone NEEDS to breath? What was the original purpose of sealing the stone in the beginning? We should always weigh the advantages and disadvantages of sealing before jumping in. http://tileandgroutsealing.blogspot.com/

[Steven Hauser]

Your point is valid about using the right tool to do the job.

That point not withstanding, this site is up and quite popular because people love to do it themselves.

Thus, if they need to grid out a large floor and do sections at a time, they would.

It doesn't take away from professionals as it is time consuming and you market your expertise and thoroughness.

Also, it is quite important the area is clean and dry before sealing or enhancing.

A halo effect is caused by water accumulation.

Finally all impregnating sealers I am aware of allow for vapor transmission.

To all professionals, we cater to you and not the DIY'er usually, that being said, it isn't your comprehensive understanding of sealers that separates you, it is your understanding of installations and the products used for them that create your professional selling points.

With our products we suggest testing a product to determine whether it needs an impregnating sealer or color enhancer.

Finally, we say if a product is thirsty enough to need a sealer, then use a flood coat to start.

[jonblez]

Thank you for all of the responses and Merry Christmas (if this does not apply to you, please ignore it).

After some experimentation, we have concluded that the cloudy edges are an accumulation of dirt. A damp mop seems to remove them.

We would have liked to have the sealing done professionally but the budget only went so far. We elected to have a highly-respected licensed contractor do the install at a cost that exceeded several bids by non-licensed companies by $5,000. To accomodate that we elected to seal the tile ourselves.

As to the issue of whether or not the tile really needed to be sealed, I guess that is a judgement call. Although not much water was absorbed when we tested it, there was a dark spot on the tile after a couple of minutes. In any case, we felt the grout (light color to blend in with the tile) needed sealing and sealing 1/16th grout joints without getting any sealer on the tile probably exceed both our talent and our patience.

Thanks again.

[Trask]

In the grand sceme of things I think you made a very logical judgement call.. The sealing usually won't destroy or cause an installation faliure.. especially if you've done some homework on the topic. A good install will last and out last your sealer job..good or bad.. I think you put money in the right place :tup1:

[SABoyt]

Glad to hear your problem was a simple one. I agree with Trask. Money well spent. However, a bad sealer job can cause havoc with an otherwise professionally installed surface.

My beef is with those that sell products to homeowners and contractors without concern for what problems they may cause. I can walk into any big box store and ask for a sealer to seal something that it shouldn't and a pissed-off uneducated clerk will gladly sell me whatever he has on the shelf as the perfect sealer for my job. Many times that is 511.

I happen to be in the business of "after the fact". As a cleaning and restoration company we get to see what happens to the floor months and years later. 511 residue being one of those after the fact issues. A HO recently paid me $1600 for 7 hours work to clean and reseal his 1200sf floor because another company used 511 7 months ago on his travertine. Since that time it got filthy. Prior to that he only needed to clean about every 18 months. Removing 511 is no picnic.

Steven, i don't have any problem with your products, so my post is not a personal attack, as you seem to have taken it. I have never used them and never run into a floor that had problems as a result of them being used. But, maybe cause i am a little slow or something, i can't quite figure this one out:
It doesn't take away from professionals as it is time consuming and you market your expertise and thoroughness.

Also, it is quite important the area is clean and dry before sealing or enhancing. HUH? The expertise of those that i see on this board is installing and maintaining hard surfaces. Mine is cleaning, sealing and restoration of hard surfaces. What did i miss?

[ben-e]

Steve, Just curious about your experiences. I'd love some useful info about products to stay away from on certian tiles. Any sealers that you know of that can be used safely on most materials? And I have sealed travertie with 511. It really atracts dirt that can't be cleaned?

[jgleason]

I split the last two posts into a new thread located HERE (http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=69239)