Grout joint height. [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

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lou432
12-01-2008, 07:57 PM
Ok guys & gals I gota job that some are aware of from the TLS input thread of which I`m using & is working great !
Short version of customers OMG comment today after I left.
24x24 polished porcelon with micro beveled edge like marble or granite, 3/16 grout lines ( due to customers decision to match the width of Dilex i used in mant areas) Tec grout with boost, flat ramondi sponges ,hand rung , & the joints are tooled to the level of where the micro bevel & flat part of the joint meet.
So in my book, when I left I was REAL HAPPY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with the out come of the joint tooling & flatness of grout.
& felt real good about the first 8 hunerd ft I did as was the Husband . BUT!!!!!!!!!!! when the Wife came in she was suprised to not see the joints level with the top of the tile & wants it fixed ( per another tile guys conversation with her after I left)
So my real ??? is is there a standard allowable/acceptable grout height/shape for this type of tile or any for that matter??
I found the "acceptable joints when grouting with 100% solids epoxys"
picture in my NTCA pdf but couldn`t find any pics of any thing else.
Any help would be great !! First time this question has reared its head in all the days Ive been tiling (20 yrs plus )

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ob1kanobee
12-01-2008, 08:15 PM
I have been in this exact situation. I knew that from years of grouting there is no way (except for one which I will elaborate on in a minute) to get the grout completely flush with the tile. I always told the custome that with the grout being lush with the tile it would be constantly dirty because you are stepping on it. It is true, however maybe not a possible excuse but true none the less and the expectation was always discussed before the grouting or stat of job preferably.
The second method to get grout flush with the top of polished porcelain and even then it is not 100% completely flush but more in line with your customer's expectation is to grout the floor. Intead of wiping up with water and sponge you take a floor machine and pure clean sand (I think play sand) and throw it on the floor when the grout is starting to get fairly dry like OMG this grout is never coming off the tiles type dry. You run the floor machine over the floor with the play sand and white pad it and it comes out pretty flush. The only thing I don't like about this process is the grout will get an abundance of tiny holes here and there with have to be readressed and use same process only by hand with the cut out piece of white pad. I have seen around 6,000 sq. ft. of polished porcelain done this way in a 10 hr. day (12x12) by three guys. Blew my mind since I was grouting the 900 sq. ft. of bathroom floors the normal sponge method and those guys told me they would be done in the same amount of time. Their grout was nice and 95%flush. I was pulling my hair out to make mine look like theirs.

gueuzeman
12-01-2008, 08:16 PM
Pictures, please. But I will say, that most "micro bevels" like on polished stone are 1/32" or so. I think this other tile guy is pulling the wife's chain. The only way I know of getting a perfectly flush oint is to dry rub it inthe old school fashion. I doubt todays high tech grouts are made to do this and give you any kind of color consistency.

You better challenge this joker to a grouting duel- and may the best sponge win!

Do your homework- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr-Hamilton_duel

Also- I remember seeing the pics of that install- smokin!

gueuze

ceramictec
12-01-2008, 08:19 PM
this might help Lou.

note this part:

Tile spacing is measured between tile edges - not from the top edge of the bevel on the tile. The majority of tile made today has a beveled edge and grout should not be installed on the bevel. The bevel is often a glazed surface which is intended to transition from one tile to another. On some tiles, the installer must "hand-tool" the grout to keep grout off the bevel.


http://www.tileusa.com/grout_faq.htm#sizejoint

ceramictec
12-01-2008, 08:26 PM
Ben & Gueuze,

I used to do the dry rub with unsanded powder on the marble floors I did when I started out. they used to come out flush.

I also used sand or sawdust when we did quarry tile grout in the kitchens of the restaurants we did. they were pretty full also when done.

I dont know about using sand with grout on porcelain floors these days, that might be iffy to do. I would just double float it and let it sit up longer.

TileArt1
12-01-2008, 08:36 PM
There is actually a very good reason NOT to fill your joints flush.

If you have a bevel or micro-bevel on your tile and you fill the joint flush with the top of the tile you have what is essentially a "v" of grout at the top of the joint. If it is truly flush your grout will feather up to nothing - the edges of your "v". Grout is not made to do this and especially not on a floor.
Just explain to her that it will not last - it will eventually start chipping out.

Then go find the other "tile guy" and school him. :D

cx
12-01-2008, 08:48 PM
All grout joints shall be uniformly finished. Cushion edge tiles shall be finished evenly to the depth of the cushion.Who decides if them bevels are cushions, Lou? I believe that would fall to the trained professional on the job. :shades:

My opinion; worth price charged.

ceramictec
12-01-2008, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by ANSI A108.10-5.3.4I never met this member but I bet he's a smart sucka :D

lou432
12-02-2008, 04:33 AM
Thanks a bunch guys!!!! To clarify, The other tile guy is in agreement with me! he only called me to let me know she had an issue & that I need to be prepared for a talk in this morn.

I researched for a couple hours last night before I posted but found very little recommendations/standards, so thanks for at least giving me unbias opinions.
Brian, Thanks for the link!! :bow:

lou432
12-02-2008, 04:15 PM
Problem solved :yipee: She was under the impression due to all the casinos shes been in ( Her Husband is a semi pro Poker Player & an X Furniture Gazillionaire ) she said that all the grout in the penthouse`s they stay in the grout seems flush .
So I described the stats from NTCA that Brian linked me to & Decided that they were "cushioned edges" Thanks CX ( I made the call)
And even offered to show her documents with pics if need be but she was more than happy with my explanation & my work . So its a mute point now ,time to celebrate :neesie: & carry on!!

Thanks again folks!!

johntrent
12-02-2008, 04:47 PM
Nice thread! :)

ceramictec
12-02-2008, 05:13 PM
So I described the stats from NTCA that Brian linked me to & Decided that they were "cushioned edges"
So its a mute point now ,time to celebrateglad I could help.
you know some clients are terrors once they get an idea they hear someplace. :D

matman
12-02-2008, 11:13 PM
This is a good thread. I've tried to explain just this a couple of times over the years but I've never had anything more than my opinion to convince the customer.

Well now I do. Thanks Brian and cx.

ceramictec
12-03-2008, 05:59 PM
..........and the TCNA.

:)