Troweled Waterproofing Membranes [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

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Crestone Tile
08-31-2008, 11:31 PM
Is anyone else using membranes like HPG, 315, or Hydroban as a total waterproofing system with their shower installations? I ask because I've done a few with HPG recently and like it. I know some have stated a difficulty with such an approach when concerning the drain, but I don't see it as a problem. In fact, I did a test setup prior to professional installs, and it was nearly impossible to de-bond the cured membrane from the drain body flange. If there's a downside, it's the wait time for flood testing.

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thuffner3
09-01-2008, 04:57 AM
There is another product by a Company called Sonneborn.
It's name is HLM-5000. I've used it quite a bit for Crack-ISO, and waterproofing in kitchens and second floor installations. I've not used it yet for shower stalls.
But from what I've seen, the product is next to impossible to destroy.

Peace

Raymondo
09-01-2008, 05:44 AM
Matt,
yeah, all I use anymore is trowel on membranes. Usually merkrete hydroguard one, sometimes HPG. Vinyl liners may as well be from the stone age.

K_Tile
09-01-2008, 06:57 AM
Neil
I really like Sonneborn sealants. The HLM_5000 sounds pretty good for the price 5gal @ $130.00. I also like it comes in four grades for application method
(spray, roller, trowel, and squeege). Is there a strong odor with this product? In my footer/foundation days I can remember how bad the membranes smelled for waterproofing basement walls and this product is spec'd for foundations.


I am surprised the green movement hasn't made manufacturers go to a LOW/NO VOC membrane. When I did residential remodels that was the biggest complaint with waterproofing i.e. Laticrete 9235.

cx
09-01-2008, 07:48 AM
The bigger problem than the wait time, Matt, is the inability to determine the actual coverage of the products. Most will specify a particular thickness, either wet or dry, that will provide their advertised results, but obtaining that thickness in a uniform layer over the entire project area is not as simple as they make it sound.

Can you get the required thickness on every part of your shower somehow? Yeah, I suppose you can, but actually being able to verify that is problematic.

Sheet membranes are far more reliable in that respect. The liquid-applied membranes might be the future in our industry, but I don't think we're there yet. :shades:

The mentioned Sonneborn product is a good example. The only place in their spec that I find a thickness mentioned is When the final membrane is where it says:
applied, the overall thickness over
joints and cracks, at coves, and
around penetrations should be
approximately 100 wet mils (2.5
mm) on the standard system.A hundred wet mills is a lotta pookey. And later it tells you to verify the applied thickness with a wet-mil gauge but never tells what the thickness should be except the part above about cracks and joints and such.

Oh, and I don't see anywhere that it says it's suitable for a tile installation using Portland-based setting products.

I like Sonneborn. I use Sonneborn products, NP-1 being a favorite. But I'd sure want some discussion with the manufacturer before I used it for a tile installation.

The liquid-applied membranes being marketed by the folks we're familiar with in the tile industry are getting better alla time. I've not used but a couple of'em and never to waterproof a shower. I just don't think I'd be comfortable building a shower for a customer with one of those products as the pan liner. I still want a sheet membrane of some sort for that application.

My opinion; worth price charged.

merkretetyler
09-01-2008, 08:13 AM
The liquid membranes perform well and adapt to any shape. To control the proper thickness, Mer-Krete still uses a fabric in the corners, drain and in the field. Try the Hydro Guard 2000 product for those jobs you want to be positive are waterproofed and applied to the proper thickness. The fabric controls the depth of the membrane. If the fabric is coated; it is thick enough.

Crestone, it is available in Pueblo and Colorado Springs.

Mer-Krete Rep

cx
09-01-2008, 08:52 AM
To control the proper thickness, Mer-Krete still uses a fabric in the corners, drain and in the field.How do y'all control the thickness where the fabric is not indicated, Jim?

merkretetyler
09-01-2008, 09:00 AM
CX,

The only good way to check the thickness is with a wet film thickness guage. Most manufacturer's list a wet film thickness. Most paint stores have them.

Good tiling!

gueuzeman
09-01-2008, 09:11 AM
I have used nothing but liquid membranes for all of my tile career, 24 years. We used Sonneborne HLM5000 at mt old job for 16 years, and I ended up as their waterproofer. Did hundreds of showers, bathrooms, and commercial kitchens. Bulletproof stuff. Great price, but super high VOC. I have since moved to the Mapei HPG, and use their fabric on the field and the mer-crete fabric in corners, like it better than the Mapei rubber coated ones. Uniform thickness achieved by the fabric.

Costs more than Sonneborn, but even with a respirator, you're killing everyone on the job or the homeowner for 2 days while it cures. I got sick of hooking up fans and whatnot. Thinset sticks to it just fine. Don't use it, go with the Mapei.

gueuze

TGR
09-01-2008, 09:23 AM
CX said

"But I'd sure want some discussion with the manufacturer before I used it for a tile installation"




I was very surprised when we did have an expert on the subject on the forum willing to talk about liquid waterproofers and no one even stepped up to the plate and quizzed him. Maybe he will still come back and answer our questions if someone invites him.


http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=49609

thuffner3
09-01-2008, 09:27 AM
CX, the other method of use, if for crack-iso. We trial it on and go right to spreading thinset right over it. The thinset blends really nice and the bond is phenomenal. When I first used this method, I thought I was laying over that new TEC Crack-ISO/thinset mix, I thinks its Blue???.
As far as consistent thickness for most liquid applied membranes, I use an 1-1/2" roller.
I had a conversation with a CUSTOMS rep about not being able to properly applied the correct thickness of material using a notched trial. This method was quite acceptable to the rep once he saw how much material was being applied.

Peace

ceramictec
09-01-2008, 09:46 AM
How do y'all control the thickness where the fabric is not indicated.I have to jump in here and give my answer.

as much as I like sheet membranes, Schluter-Kerdi, Nobleseal-Chloraloy & CS
I also like liquid membranes Custom's-RedGard, Laticrete's-HydroBan and Mapei-315.

the way I control the thickness of a liquid applied membrane and Custom's Tech Support agree's on this method to achieve the required thickness is to use a V notch trowel on the first coat, then once that tacks up go over it with a final coat to fill in the V grooves and create to smooth top application.

http://i38.tinypic.com/2prcod3.jpg http://i36.tinypic.com/29gd6p5.jpg

stullis
09-01-2008, 10:14 AM
Wow that is alot of pookey as cx puts it. That has to be spendy and time consuming to apply the stuff with a v notch trowel.

Crestone Tile
09-01-2008, 11:31 AM
The liquid membranes perform well and adapt to any shape. To control the proper thickness, Mer-Krete still uses a fabric in the corners, drain and in the field. Try the Hydro Guard 2000 product for those jobs you want to be positive are waterproofed and applied to the proper thickness. The fabric controls the depth of the membrane. If the fabric is coated; it is thick enough.

Crestone, it is available in Pueblo and Colorado Springs.

Thanks Jim. Who in the CoSpgs area stocks your fabric, corners, etc?

Crestone Tile
09-01-2008, 11:54 AM
...obtaining that thickness in a uniform layer over the entire project area is not as simple as they make it sound.

Can you get the required thickness on every part of your shower somehow? Yeah, I suppose you can, but actually being able to verify that is problematic.

Sheet membranes are far more reliable in that respect. The liquid-applied membranes might be the future in our industry, but I don't think we're there yet.

CX,

I can't and won't disagree that manufactured sheet membranes are probably more reliable regarding adequate waterproofing as a whole.

I say probably because I'm experiencing the installations getting faster, and I find myself becoming more comfortable with the perceived quality and adequacy of creating the proper coverage. I think liquid membranes can be just as reliable as a sheet membrane given the proper understanding and skills to install them.

Regarding thickness, I gauged my initial test setup. When utilizing fiberglass mesh along with the appropriate trowel, I found that a side benefit is that it assists in creating the proper thickness. I feel pretty confident in the coverage being adequate ... hopefully, I'm not being naive or too optimistic.

Crestone Tile
09-01-2008, 12:24 PM
I have since moved to the Mapei HPG, and use their fabric on the field and the mer-crete fabric in corners, like it better than the Mapei rubber coated ones. Uniform thickness achieved by the fabric.

Gueuze,

When you say "their fabric", it's just alkali resistant mesh, right? I've been using AR mesh that is from a stucco supplier. It comes in 38" by 150'.

ceramictec
09-01-2008, 12:25 PM
Wow that is alot of pookey as cx puts it. That has to be spendy and time consuming to apply the stuff with a v notch trowel.not really, being a liqiud it is applied very easily and coverage is good.
a 3.5 gal gets about 130-140 sq.ft. at 93 mil wet.

spendy ?...not really to any other waterproofing out there.

cx
09-01-2008, 01:07 PM
When you say "their fabric", it's just alkali resistant mesh, right? I've been using AR mesh that is from a stucco supplier. It comes in 38" by 150'.The proprietary fabrics for use with liquid-applied membranes are nothing at all like the mesh tape used for CBU joints and such, Matt.

My opinion; worth price charged.

ceramictec
09-01-2008, 01:32 PM
cx is right, the "fabric" is more tightly woven to create a more dense membrane once the liquid membrane is absorbed and drys.

gueuzeman
09-01-2008, 07:09 PM
Fabric- yes and no.

The Mapei "field" fabric is a fiberglass "screen" of about 1/8" squares and a thick fiber dimension to hold the trowel off the floor. Flat trowel to bond, V-notch, lay fabric, the flat trowel off for the first coat. Second coat, tight weave mer-crete fabric in corners and on edges, and second coat the rest as well. Then third coat the next day. I've bonded to Standard mud drains and kerdi drains. I had big problems with mapei's pre formed corner and edge units, anybody want to buy some?

Umm, does that answer anyone's questions?

I predict a lot of product rep action here tomorrow when they get back to work. The sad part is that we're off today and still talking about tile.

But I did take the kids swimming at the lake today. No waterproofing.

gueuze

Crestone Tile
09-01-2008, 08:42 PM
The proprietary fabrics for use with liquid-applied membranes are nothing at all like the mesh tape used for CBU joints and such, Matt.

If that's the case, then my installations have been incorrect. But man ... the stuff I'm using looks identical in profile to the stuff I saw the Mapei guys do a demo with. It gauges correctly at 40 mils too. I went with this mesh because it looks the same and I have a hard time accepting something as proprietary if it's just repackaged with a manufacturer's given name (I'm not saying that's the case here, just my impression of the material with a greater expense).

The Mapei "field" fabric is a fiberglass "screen" of about 1/8" squares and a thick fiber dimension to hold the trowel off the floor. Flat trowel to bond, V-notch, lay fabric, the flat trowel off for the first coat. Second coat, tight weave mer-crete fabric in corners and on edges, and second coat the rest as well. Then third coat the next day.

That's what I've been doing minus the third coat. Do you always do the third coat? Is that indicated by the manufacturer and I missed it?

gueuzeman
09-01-2008, 09:01 PM
install specs here- HPG specs (http://www.mapei.it/Referenze/Multimedia/MapelasticHPG_TDS_EA.pdf)

Does not list third coat. I'm usually doing it because there's other thing to do on the job as well and at that point it's cheap insurance. If you're just gonna do two, make very sure they're both good.

gueuze

merkretetyler
09-02-2008, 10:20 AM
Sorry for the delay, took the rest of the holiday off to be with family.

Crestone wrote: Thanks Jim. Who in the CoSpgs area stocks your fabric, corners, etc?

Tile Trader's

A thin third coat is always a good idea. Like 80 s/f per gallon. In case, a pinhole occurs or something is just missed on the second coat. I also would recommend the manufacturer's proper fabric. It is tested and proven.