Housing Bailout Bill

[ddmoit]

Ron Paul reviews today's proceedings...

http://www.house.gov/paul/index.shtml

Among some of the things he points out about this bill (which passed the House) is that it lifts the government debt ceiling and - get this - requires credit card issuers to report all credit card transactions to the IRS!

See Dick Armey's website's comments about that here: http://freedomworks.com/newsroom/press_template.php?press_id=2571

In case you are unaware, Dr. Paul is not just a congressman and a medical doctor, he is a de facto economist.

Additionally, here is Don Harrold with an unpleasant but truthful message about "homeowners". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRA1pdY7CCg

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[HS345]

Unshuckingbelievable. :sick: Monitor all credit card transactions? You know they're seeing tax dollar signs, but the cost of administering such folly will certainly wash any potential gains.:shake:

Don Harrold certainly has a penchant for stating the obvious at times, doesn't he? :idea: His credibility certainly went down on my credibility-O-meter when he gave coo coo Kucinich an ounce of cred. Not to mention the CONSTANT spamming.

[cx]

I especially like the term Faith Based Currency to describe our current fiat money in this country. Gives exactly the correct feel to the situation. Money that comes from our invisible friend, eh?

Oh, how I wish the Rs woulda had the good sense to promote that man as their standard bearer in the next election. First time in my lifetime they coulda had someone who actually practiced the principles they only pretend to espouse.

[HS345]

Oh, how I wish the Rs woulda had the good sense to promote that man as their standard bearer in the next election.
Good sense? :x:

[ddmoit]

I have yet to see a single mainstream media mention of the credit card thing.

I hope taxpayers remember - come election time - who saddled them with this enormous bill.

Alas, I think the politicians have figured out that there are more tax-getting voters than tax-paying voters. The way I see it, that's the beginning of the end of a sustainable democracy.

As democracy has proven itself to be an enemy of liberty (even as the government indoctrinates its subjects to believe that democracy is liberty), I won't be sad to see it go.

[HS345]

First of all Dan, the United States is not a democracy. Secondly, what form of government would you prefer?

[ddmoit]

Strictly speaking, it's not a democracy. But it is a democracy in the same sense as was meant by president Wilson when he wanted to make the world "safe for democracy", and by George Bush when he speaks of bringing democracy to the Middle East. So we can agree that it is not a pure democracy, but it is democratic - more democratic all the time when voters can vote my rights away through ballot initiatives.

I share the same vision as those who describe themselves as anarcho-capitalists. It's a vision wholly inconceivable by someone who cannot accept the existence of laws without the existence of government. I usually try to rule these people out before I bother to discuss it any further.

[HS345]

more democratic all the time when voters can vote my rights away through ballot initiatives.
Agreed.:cry:

I share the same vision as those who describe themselves as anarcho-capitalists. It's a vision wholly inconceivable by someone who cannot accept the existence of laws without the existence of government.
Though somewhat skeptical at times, I have an open mind. I would be interested in hearing what that is all about. Or at least a brief overview.:)

To be honest though, I don't see how laws could be enforced without some form of governance. Does that rule me out?:D

[ddmoit]

To be honest though, I don't see how laws could be enforced without some form of governance. Does that rule me out?So long as you can recognize that laws exist without government, there's hope for you.:)

It also helps to cleanse you mind of the popular notion of anarchy and the chaos that it implies.

First, a definition of government: an organization that claims a territorial monopoly on the use of force. This applies to all governments, including ours.

Now, my definition of anarchy is the absence of government. It does not follow then, that anarchy is also the absence of laws, since we recognize that laws can exist without government.

Here are some relevant articles:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer60.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella15.html

[HS345]

It also helps to cleanse you mind of the popular notion of anarchy and the chaos that it implies.
So long as it doesn't involve surgical instruments, I'm game. :twitch:

Thanks for the articles Dan, I'll check 'em out and report back. :usflag: kin we still have a flag?

I think you would acknowledge that the founding fathers knew about natural law, eh?

[ddmoit]

I think you would acknowledge that the founding fathers knew about natural law, eh?Yes - and their attempt to create a liberty-defending state via a constitution based on the consent of the governed was a lofty and noble, but ultimately failed experiment. Witness today's state of affairs where the strongest argument we can make for our candidate is that he's not as crappy and liberty-destroying as the other guy. Where else can that path lead except to the destruction of liberty? The only thing debated is the pace of the journey.

And flags are OK. Just don't expect to force me to pledge allegiance to yours.

Here's more:

http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/anarchism/faq.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

[dgunnels]

Back to the bill folks... This bill is fundamentally wrong on so many levels.

[sdaniels7114]

So we band together to make it impossible for the IRS to do anything with this data. IE when you go into the store for a six pack insist on 6 separate cc transactions. Pay your water bill EVERY day. Don't place one order for 450 ft of tile. Place 450 orders for 1 ft of tile.

As to fiat currency, what's really the point of the gov keeping $1 worth of gold in Fort Knox for ever dollar in your wallet or purse or bank account? If we ever have the kind of upheaval that would lead to the end of the US government, do you think the last thing that would happen is the doors of Fort Knox being opened and all the money being turned in for its value in Gold? If we kept $1 in gold for every dollar in circulation and the government went belly-up you can damn well bet that someone other than you would end up with your gold. So why bother lugging it around all over the place or keeping it at all?

[ddmoit]

As to fiat currency, what's really the point of the gov keeping $1 worth of gold in Fort Knox for ever dollar in your wallet or purse or bank account? If we ever have the kind of upheaval that would lead to the end of the US government, do you think the last thing that would happen is the doors of Fort Knox being opened and all the money being turned in for its value in Gold? If we kept $1 in gold for every dollar in circulation and the government went belly-up you can damn well bet that someone other than you would end up with your gold. So why bother lugging it around all over the place or keeping it at all?And yet the idea that the government can just print money endlessly until the dollar has no value at all doesn't bother you?

Steve, I think you're missing the point about how precious commodities can and should be money. It's way more than I can explain in a forum, but I would be happy to direct you to further reading if you really wanted to understand it.

I will say this though. One of your incorrect assumptions is that only a government could issue money. An ounce of gold is an ounce of gold. Anyone could mint coins. A trusted minter would have his coins circulated. Disreputable coins would be discounted or discarded altogether - just like any other economic good. Gold coins are far more difficult to counterfeit than today's $100 bill.

Additionally, anyone could set up a warehouse to store gold, and issue warehouse receipts that are literally paper money backed by gold.

Your Fort Knox scenario is unrealistic.

[sdaniels7114]

And yet the idea that the government can just print money endlessly until the dollar has no value at all doesn't bother you?

Of course it does, I'm just not at all convinced that we can't hold our leaders accountable. Fanny and Freddie may very well end up costing us big, but I suspect that it would have been worse to let them fall. I can't say that for certain, I install floors and don't have anywhere near a complete understanding of everything. The mortgage industry on the other hand is an enigma wrapped around a riddle... etc to me. I just have faith that most of the people making these sorts of decisions are like most of the people I meet. IE competent and honest by and large.

I am convinced that if we were to have a revolution my gold wouldn't find its way back to me. So I'm ambivalent about it waiting there for me.

[ddmoit]

I just have faith that most of the people making these sorts of decisions are like most of the people I meet. IE competent and honest by and large.Politicians are absolutely counting on this sentiment.

At least with gold, you would know what you lost. Value is being sucked out of your dollars as we speak, and has been since 1913 by the people in which you have placed your faith.

These bailouts are only delaying and increasing the enormity of the medicine we have coming. It's better to let the failures happen and take it now. It would be better not to have to take it at all, but that's not an option anymore.

[John K]

Hiding s**t deep inside bills should be illegal!! Dirty bastards!

What about the national debt? Isn't the Chinese loaning the majority of the money? :)