Mapei floor grout/511 sealed DISCOLORED

[sparkyfish]

:sick:
I have been remodeling a vacant condo for some time.Last Dec I installed the bathroom flooring...Marzetti ceramic tile 12x12 in light Rose. Over standard plywood subfloor covered with concrete backer board, most likely Durarock.
I purchased Mapei Keracolor sanded grout in Ivory and mixed/applied it according to directions. Looked wonderful.
Following the sage advise of the pros here, I used 511 Impregnator to seal the grout. Applied three seperate times with the proper interval between applications.
This is a special job for a very special client, so I am anxious to turn over the completed project in pristine condition,,the very best I can give.

No one has been there except me. No one has used the bathroom except me, so I know nothing unusual happened to cause the problem.
I had left a normal rubberized backed carpet style bathroom rug on the floor for about 8 days. Moving it to vacuum the floor, I was HORRIFED to discover that under the rug ,,the grout had turned dark brown.
I checked all the plumbing,,no leaks,cant be water intrusion. I dont shower there. The grout around the toilet is still the same orginal color..cant be that.
Likewise the bathtub,,the grout closest to it is stil the same orginal color as well.
Its been several days since I made the discovery. I had thought that maybe the rug trapped water vapor ( kiind of like taped down plastic would)
and had hoped that it would " dry out" and return to its previous color.
SO far,,that has not happened.

The few times I did use the shower there , or had gotten water on the floor..the grout did not change color.

I am completely stumpted. The project is almost complete..Im supposed to be done this week.

Ive logged onto the Mapei website,,but cant find anyway to get questions answered there. I will call their customer service line.

HAS anyone ever had this happen ? What on earth caused this ?
More important,,how do I fix it ?
and prevent it from occuring again ?

By the way,,the bathroom is small 5x8..the bath rug is a light beige..and there is no discoloration on the rug itself on either side. Nothing has ever been spilt on the floor. BLARG !!!!
HELP ME TILE WIZARDS,,please!
thanks,,,
Darcy

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[Davestone]

Hmmmm i've seen throw rugs do funny things,but usually they leave a jute stain behind,or keep the grout looking pristine.I haven't had this problem before, but i know what i'd do, i'd scrape down that brown grout and regrout it and seal it and forget it.i could tell you a dozen theories and chemicals that might work but you'd spend wayyy tooo much time,maybe George or someone else has something to add. :bow:

[sparkyfish]

hi ya Dave...
I may have to do that,,but my problem with that is Keracolor is no longer available in my area locally. The entire bathroom,,shower, countertop , floor, is done in the sanded Ivory. I dont have ANY left at all.
Lowes switched out all its products a few months ago. They dont carry Ivory at all in any of the Mapei products..its all special order. No body around this general area has it in stock. All anyone carries now in stock is white and grey..which will not work.
This place is a holiday rental on the 18th green of a golf and country club. Its rented out starting July 21.
I need to make certain it doesnt happen again.
May be I should mention , too, that this is in a remote mountain location a 2 hour commute in each direction ,,and im not getting paid to fix this.

[sparkyfish]

neglected to mention that I have a 2 year maintainance contract . If it happens again,,Im going to be paying out of my pocket to fix it each time.
:blah:
just goes to show you ( or rather, me ) that even when you do everything right, stuff happens!

[GeorgeT]

How long between the time you applied the sealer and the time you put the rug down? Is the affected area the same shape as the rug?
There are many tales here of the rubber backed rug that was put down on a coated saltillo floor that "melted" into the coating and left an impression. I wonder if this is something similar?
Solvent based sealers take some time to evaporate, and the silicone continues to "cure" over time. If the Rug was put down too soon in the timeline there could be the remains of a reaction that occured.
I have seen many countertops with cookie jar shaped dark areas because the counter top items were put back before the complete cure time was up...

[sparkyfish]

Hi George,

several months elasped before I put the rug down. The discoloration is a bit larger than the rug itself.
im at a real loss here. :cry:

[GeorgeT]

Hi Darcy -

With several months gone by, we can assume its not the carrier in the sealer. If it is caused by the rug it is a reaction to an outgassing from the rubber backing. It affects many applied finishes and it may be affecting the silicone in the grout.
Next step is the "mystery problem cleaning program" which means you need to test several types of different chemical cleaners to find something that "moves" the staining. That will give a direction to focus on for further cleaning tests.
Have you tried any cleaners on it yet? We are looking for alkaline, acid or solvent type cleaners.....
You would test alkaline first, acidic next and solvent last...
Let me know what you've tried so far...

[sparkyfish]

george,,being a neophyte tiler, I dont know anything about the various cleaners.

I only discovered the problem a few days ago, and due to the remote location, very little in the way of tiling supplies is readily available in the area.
I havent tried anything at all yet. I was waiting to see if it was somehow wet and would dry out.
I left the site late Friday and will be returning tomorrow. ( mon) Apparently after a trip to a tile supplier up here where I live.
Now,,I understand what alkali / acids/solvents are,,but I dont know how that equates to the various cleaners.
I cant recall ever seeing a cleaner labeled as an acid or alkali etc.
All that I have at the condo is BonAmi cleanser, Spick and Span dry powder, and white vinegar.,,maybe some palmolive liquid soap. liquid bleach.
Assuming these are not the types I should try, what brand names products would fit the bill ? Would they be available at Lowes,,where i have to stop tomorrow anyway..a tile supplier OR other?

And because I wont be coming home from the site for several days, any specialltips on how to apply/use the products you are recommending ?

The very last thing inthe world I want to do is take out the grout and redo it. There is no way it way it would cure and be sealed properly by the 21st even if I could locate the grout someplace.

Oh BLARG !

[GeorgeT]

Darcy -
These are just basic cleaners.. the vinegar you have is an acid...spic and span is a mild alkaline, acetone or mineral spirits would be a solvent....
If you drop by Lowes, DuPont has a cleaner called Advanced Stone and Tile Cleaner which is a good alkaline.
The whole point is to test these basic types of chemistries to see if they make any difference...make the stain "move"... if the stain changes at all we know that whatever cleaner you were using affects the stain...then we focus on that type of cleaner...
So take an assortment of these cleaners, a couple of buckets and brushes, some rags, a good pair of gloves and your safety gear etc.... and we'll try some things and see if anything happens...

and no, I've not seen a stain created this way before... :)

[sparkyfish]

LOL well. IM SO happy to be the first one to get a new kind of stain...i feel so special... :rolleyes:
maybe I 'll get a write up somewhere -similar to the one my client had when he discovered a new species of mite on his pet lizards.
Thanks so much for the cleanser product education thus far. It will be interesting to see what "transpires."
Got the private message as well sent a reply. Will call.

THANK goodness you are here to save me from myself ~ lol :bow: :bow: :bow:
DRC

[sparkyfish]

hey George,,thanks SO much for the phone convo.

SO MUCH that I DONT know.
I will be down at the site early Tuesday and will be trying all those fab suggestions you walked me through.

Lets hope they yield some decent results ! :neesie:

[sparkyfish]

update.....
after speaking to George on Monday,,I had planned to go try out al the ideas he gave me.
BUt instead, I cam e down witha nasty respiratory infection. I havent been down to the job site in a week. I hope to get there in the next few days. The rental can go on fine with stained grout. blarg.
Thanks again george

[sparkyfish]

George,,come back George !

I did try Simple green mixed 5 to 1. Let it soak and scrubbed with a nylon bristle brush. Rinsed throughly. Couldnt use my shop vac,,it gave up the ghost.
Results...oh blarg ! Now the grout looks far worse. A few clean spots, some white blotches, and one patch where i scrubbed the grout down a bit.
HOw does this kind of thing happen ?
Time to try a strong alkali ?
Im thinking Im am going to have to take out the grout and re-do it after all.
There goes my profit on this segment of the job.
I thought Mapei and 511 were tried , tested and reliable products. Seems to me like they should have anticipated a person using a rubber backed bathroom rug.
Ah, the mysteries of tiling :sick:

[Davestone]

Now you see what i was talking about in my post,i've been doing this mannnnny years just remove the grout and move on. :bow:

[MudGuy]

I thought Mapei and 511 were tried , tested and reliable products.That they are. :gerg: :D

[GeorgeT]

We had talked about trying an alkaline, a mild acid and a solvent...
I think the Mapei and the 511 are not at issue here... the issue is the reaction to the rubber on the rug.... if it does not move with one of the three cleaners then you may have to replace the grout....
not a pleasant thought but an unfortunate outcome.....

[sparkyfish]

I bow to the sages. IE Davestone and Mud.
can we arrange to have some sort of mind-meld,,whereby I get to absorb your vast knowledge ?? please ?????
OK ,,so IF I remove the grout and re-do ,isnt the chance of this happening again rather high ?
I mean,,if the best products around do this..what can I use that won't do this ?
Im very frustrated,,and broke !
I estimate that removing the grout, the commute, the materials, is going to cost me around $ 500. Then I have to shut down the rental while I do the work and it cures.
Not a happy prospect.
Mapei Keracolor sanded with bio-guard and 511 Impregnator should have been excellent choices for this installation. And a $ 5.00 rug wrecked it.
How does one go about calling this to the attention of a manufacturer ?
Do I have a warranty claim ? Anyone ever go that route and try to re-coup the material costs as least ? It is worth the effort ?
and *@()&@(^@&@*!!! doesnt it make sense that a manufacturer of a floor grouting product would have anticipated that their customers would put down a rubber-backed bathroom rug ?

My frustration is showing. The rest of the job is gorgeous..but the most visible portion looks like S**T.
Me not a happy camper.
whats the best way to remove the grout ? I have a dremel, a rotozip,an impact wrench but no grinders of any kind. Small floor,but Ide rather not dig it out with a grout knife. I have visions of me chiseling it out and breaking some of the tiles with a mis-hit ....
oH the Agony...

[MudGuy]

OK, so IF I remove the grout and re-do ,isnt the chance of this happening again rather high ?Not if you ditch the rug :D

Morning Darcy –

I didn’t see any comments regarding how the Durock was installed or the ceramic tile. What was the condition of the plywood? Please advise.

I have used Mapei and Miracle products exclusively for years. I don’t see any recourse from either company because as George said, it doesn’t appear to be the fault of either product line. Rather, I’d be cursing the pos rug or trying to determine what might be going on under the installation.

Is this bathroom on a first floor, second floor etc? Is there occupancy above the bathroom or next door? If so, another bathroom?
It sounds like a possible moisture issue to me. :shrug: I wonder if you were to lay a couple large pieces of tile for a day or so, randomly on the existing installation, or another type rubber backed mat, if you wouldn’t get the same result of darkened grout? If so, I would be more concerned with a moisture problem than a reaction to the rug.

Regarding the repair of the existing grout, an angle grinder with a diamond wheel will make short work of those grout joints. Follow your grinder with a shop-vac to minimize the dust, re-grout and you shouldn’t lose more than a one night rental, if that. Hopefully, the property manager would be amenable to sealing for you later in the week.

[sparkyfish]

HI Muddy,

The install was over 3/4 plywood subfloor in excellent condition. I used a latex primer, then a specific flooring mortar and lamenated the durarock to the subfloor attaching with galv screws about every 6 inches in the field. Left to dry for several days.
I used a Custom Blend flooring mortar with acrylic additive liquid to install the tiles. left to dry for several days.
I then used Mapei Keracolor bio-guard sanded grout in Ivory,,,not only for the floor,,but the entire bathroom...gotta have that continious look in small spaces !!! :neesie:
The condo is a single level and there are four units in this block. The bathrooms do adjoin the other units. ( picture four squares placed in a larger square and the interior corners where they all meet are the bathrooms.)
BUT.... I am a Union trained commerical plumber and have been under the units numerous times..there are no leaks. The crawl space is continious under all the units, well ventilated and there hasnt been any rain in months.
My first thought was moisture as well,, as it looks dark like when it was wet. But the area in question is in the middle of the floor and does not extend under the toilet, or the vanity , or the tub. And it hasnt dried out in the last few weeks.
Since I installed this last dec/jan..I have been the only one to use the bathroom. The other units had been in use all the time.
The discoloration occured only after the rug was placed there.

Yeah,,Ide like to ditch the rug,,but its a condition of rental,,,like having cable tv and a coffeemaker ! All the rugs generally available are from China..land of mystery ingredients/materials.

I dont have an angle grinder and can not really afford to buy one. Ide rig up a vac to any power tool though,,( along with dust mask and goggles) I like my lungs. Ive seen diamond wheels for dremel..i could afford that. Dumb idea ?
I can easily place some big ole tiles on to the floor and place the rug somewhere too, any particular way I should do that ?
Management is only an agent,they dont care if I shut down. My Client , however..does want it open asap. Hes the one I need to keep happy.

Do you ever get out to Santa Cruz area ???

THANKS !

[MudGuy]

“Muddy” :rolleyes: :lol1:

Ok, Sparky, moving forward here…:D

I used a Custom Blend flooring mortar with acrylic additive liquid to install the tiles.Just to confirm, a dry-set (non-modified) thinset mixed with the appropriate latex additive, yes?

The bathrooms do adjoin the other units. ( picture four squares placed in a larger square and the interior corners where they all meet are the bathrooms.) The other units had been in use all the timeThat’s the info I was looking for.

Take a sheet of plastic and tape it over a few tile and see what happens next 24-48 hours. If the grout darkens, you’ve got moisture problems. If the grout still looks good, then kudos to George(:bow: ) and Dave (:bow: ), it’s the rug. Go figure...:shrug:

Angle grinders – Makita 4 ½”, $60.00, Bosch 4 ½”, $75.00
4” Diamond blade - $25.00 - $55.00, for grout an inexpensive one will do fine.

Santa Cruz? Nope, but I do roll down south in Cambria – less peeps, more quiet :D