bits about history

[smee]

Thanks for the welcome Cami - i did fill out the registration page...hope I did it correctly and I am now official?

I'm surprised there isn't more action in here. With all the "action" we are seeing in the world - you'd think more people would be interested in their world and how we got here.

To know history is to know yourself....

If anyone is interested in early middle eastern history there is a great author on the subject and his name is Bernard Lewis...
check out his books. He has an intelligent, informed and conservative view on the Middle East. I believe his specialty is early Medieval period Middle Eastern history - but if you do a search for him- you'll find he's written on a broad time line...

I have read a ton of English Military History - with a focus on late Anglo Saxon and early Medieval warfare. If anyone has any bit's o' information to pass on - I'd be delighted to get it.

Wow - I'm so excited! Not too many of my girlfriends want to hang around with me to discuss the why's and wherefore's of how Caesar helped to build one of the most successful and powerful Military machines of all time....

[Sponsored Links]

[John Bridge]

Hi Smee,

I've done a little reading on Caesar's conquest of Gaul, but it's not my specialty. I've pretty much devoted myself to American History, the Founding Period, the Rev War, the Seven Years War (French and Indian War). I like it all, though, and there are a few others here who will join in. Just get them started. Pick a specific topic and state a view. You'll find someone to argue with. ;)

Join us in the Mud Box, too. There's always something political going on there.

[smee]

I'm ashamed to say that I haven't read much american history - I've had my share in college - I majored in history and art history but the american history didn't grab me.

I am happy to say tho - that I have dabbled more and more in it and find it pretty facinating stuff. I've read mostly what I like to call "fluff" - some biography's and some fictional history. I have read a few pieces on pre-WW1 United States.

pick a topic......

ok - here's a start, I guess....

What I want to know is - in battles with huge numbers of men involved - how did they plan - and when things went awry what was thier means of communication? Was it runners? Did they have a plan mapped out before hand? How did they move masses of men, horses, seige equipment, weapons. What forms of communication did they employ. Doesn't really matter what period excepting the modern, for instance it would be interesting to note from the classic period of the first historically known major battles to say Waterloo? Referring to battle line formations?
If you've seen braveheart for example. One can only imagine that once the line begins control is largely out the window - it's a melee - hand to hand - how did they do it?

[Hobbit]

Smee....

I want to add my welcome!!

You'll find that there a substantial number of learned folk hanging around here. I've never seen so many truly intelligent people in one spot--digitally speaking of course!!

I love history. Unfortunately, its too large a subject to ever fully understand. I've studied some very early stuff (Biblical period) in some depth, some European stuff, and of course American history. I really enjoy it all, but of course am better versed in certain areas.

Military history eh? And early stuff at that! Sort of an eclectic subject. Little is really known for sure. Shaping the battlefield can be a really in-depth study. Of course the study of some of the better field commanders can give a lot of insight into modern warfare. A lot of the techniques we use today are adaptations from earlier times.

You asked a lot of questions.....I believe you probably have a lot of the answers...or can readily arrive at the most plausible ones.
Battlefield communications has always been a real problem (still is to some extent). Early on, most planning was done in the relative safety of walled cities or castles or palaces. Only the most important battlefield leaders were involved and the "plan" was not divulged to anyone outside this limited circle. Trust was a very sacred thing, and there was not much of it! There was little incentive to fight for a cause and many individuals changed sides in the middle of a battle, often redrawing entire battlefields in the process.

Battles were waged, in fact entire campaigns, based on very sketchy information in the planning stage. Battlefields were not the ebb and flow examples we see today. Everything was very rigid. There was no flexibility in the plan, because there was no way to initiate a change on the battlefield. The most effective battlefield leaders realized they could sometimes help their cause by deviating slightly from the plan, and they did so, but that eventuality wasn't planned for. There have been numerous cases of entire armies marching to their death because of a plan and no way to change it.

Communications on the battlefield was mostly a local commander thing. Almost all of it was done by horn signals. When long distance communication was attempted it was by runner or mounted carrier. The information carried was often a verbal warning or direction and was entrusted only to the most daring and most trust worthy individual. When written communication was attempted it was usually in the form of a scroll, sealed with wax and impressed with a signet ring or seal. These were hand carried to their destination...or not....depending on how lucky the runner was on that particular day!

Some early battlefields utilized signaling devices like smoke, reflected light, and pennants or banners. There was a lot of stuff tried with very limited success. True battlefield communications didn't evolve until much later with the use of radio communication.

Now, tell us what you think..... We love to argue!
;)

:):)

[John Bridge]

Plan? Battle plan? There's supposed to be a plan? :D


As I said, my forays into the classical period have been brief, but what Howard said about communications held true up through the Rev War and beyond. Written orders were often frowned upon because of the propensity for couriers to be captured or killed. So orders were often verbal, which added to the inherent and complete confusion that surrounds the field of battle even to this day.

I've broken away from the tried and true method of interpreting history by studying war and conquest, important as that aspect is. I like better to understand the politics that leads to various conflicts. Politics is where it's at.

[Hobbit]

Right on JB....You really said a mouthful that time!:)

The politics of any period in time lends a lot of emphasis to any battles that took place. War and conquest?? You can't really study history that way. After all, the history is written by the victor!!;)

[smee]

it'smee guys....
Good posts, both of you.

John, get three people together and you got politics...everything is political. Everything is arguable!!!! Woo. Ever read Machiavelli?
the master form of duplicitous, unscrupulousness that IS politics!!!
I love politics too, but I'm hooked on history.

The last politico-socio history bio I read was John Adams. John did you read that book?

okay - about history. Howard - very informative. I've been to about 6 different major battlefield sites in Britain and France. Many of them pertaining to a small span of time in the both the War of the Roses, and the Hundred Years War. However, in the area of the somme - as you know there have been countless battles over the same ground over countless centuries.
Having studied the medieval period ad nauseum - and visited any fortification sites I could - regarding the question of communication - it does seem to be a specific set of circumstances and therefore strategy would lend itself to that type of warfare. I realize that the command system would logically be hierarchical and that within that there were countless deceptions, exploitation and circumstances that changed the course of the battle and the course of it's history for that matter.
I suppose I sit and wonder about the anecdotal aspects of periods where we just don't have the information. When you read history of WWII and the individual stories - How some men do some the amazing things they do - the nature of luck and surviving where no one believed they could. How many times - how many stories of feats in warfare have happened! Although some stories have come down about people and circumstances - still it's an endless facination to me.

I digress - So, Howard - I can't really argue with you on your information. I agree. Only, I believe that there is more to it. for example - was there a code system - we've seen it in different modern conflicts - where is it's origin - who came up with the big idea?? Was there one in Roman Military History - of farther back? I don't know yet. I've just begun doing in depth studies in Roman Warfare. Each culture has a particular inherent nature of itself...the romans conquered and assimilated, the vikings pilaged and settled, the anglos liked to write stuff down - but weren't into building things - they liked to move earth around? William - conquered and built some huge towers of strength.
How did this 'nature of thier civilization' effect them, influence the sometimes successful ( sometimes not) methods of warfare........am I making sense.

History is a facinating subject with so many opportunities for more discoveries in different sources. It made a marked difference for me to visit battlesites and knowing the number of the armies involved and the logistics - it was an amazingly tangible feeling to stand in a field of a battle where huge masses of men fought literally face to face....

....did i mention that I do archery? Oh, man - it's fun. None of that cheating thing with the little cams and wheels ( hah ah ) I am into recurve archery. In England i had the opportunity to try to pull a stick bow modelled after the famed yew bows of the 14th century.....couldn't budge the thing. It's pulling weight was something like 90lbs. it was almost taller than me. I had to stand on a box. it was funny! Then this huge guy got up and pulled the thing and pinged an arrow about 200yds!

I digress.....ah History, I've never had much opportunity to even articulate my studies with people.....*sigh* thanks guys. I'm happy to be here.

[davem]

Hi Smee, do you get into fiction at all?
If so I imagine you have read Timeline by Michael Crichton? If not, I highly recommend it. I was fascinated by the warfare and hand/hand combat descriptions.

[smee]

hi Dave -

I do read fiction - I call it *fluff* - a little mental break from the text book stuff !

I have not read Timeline but have had it on my reading list.

I'll have to check it out.

There is an acutal History book - not a big one - called
Battle of 1565. It's the battle of the island of Malta of the Templar knights against the Turks. It is a fantastic, intense, exciting read. Like fiction enough to make you wonder why it hasn't been made into a movie...

check it out.

[davem]

googled and came up with this: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1855328305?vi=glance
Is that it? :)

[smee]

No, that's not the one....

it's this one....
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0850529301/qid=1054919327/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-7182881-7571139?v=glance&s=books

wow, that's a long link.

if it won't take you there...search Amazon for Ernle Bradford.
he's the author.

[smee]

Whoops
wrong one dave....

hold on, i'll be right back....

it may be out of print.......

[smee]

Whahlah!

phew - it took a while......



here it is.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/2ZEK9ASX3QJ4R/qid=1054920005/sr=5-2/ref=sr_5_2/104-7182881-7571139

[davem]

That led to a page with several links. This was the top one. It's right? :)

Great Siege: Malta 1565 (Wordsworth Military Library.)
by Ernle Bradford, Ernie Bradford

[smee]

Sorry for the confusion.

Ernie this time...yes, that's the right one.

let me know what you think when you're done reading it.

[John Bridge]

Don't let it be forgot, that once there was a spot . . . . :D

[Hobbit]

Smee....

Sounds as if you may be able to enlighten us on some of the more interesting facets of early warfare. How (why) did you develop your intense interest in this subject area?? I am an ex-army flight officer whose interest in history has developed over the years. Although I claim no expertise in military history, my enthusiasm for history in general makes this an interesting study.

Tell us a little more about yourself. What are you currently studying? Yeah, I'm nosy!!;) Just the educator in me I guess.:)

:):)

[Hobbit]

Didn't know that you were into musicals JB..???

Of course, the lines stand on their own as well.

:):)

[John Bridge]

What do you mean "musicals," Howard? I'm talking history here. :D

I think that line from Camelot is one of the best that ever was. I love music. :)

I didn't know you were a "flight officer." Helicopters or fixed wing? Maybe both, eh? :) Fort Rucker.

I'm a nosey bastard, too. :D

[Hobbit]

I recognized the words immediately. Camelot (the film adaptation) is truly a beautiful musical work.

Yeah; commercial fixed wing pilot on the left coast in the 70's and Army rotary wing attack helio pilot in the 80's.:) Got to study a lot about the Eastern Bloc doctrine and battlefield before the fall of the "curtain."

:)

[smee]

Hey fella's -

Camelot is a great film. Richard Harris was one of the best! Did you see him in "The Field"? It's an intense film, no indians or men in tights....;)

Howard - I seem to baffle a lot of people - and I have no interesting explanation. My family is not involved in the Military, law inforcement or any government agency.
Unfortunately, I was a child of public education - no offense - but mine was a non-event - I got A's in History and Art. I chose Art School. I started reading a great deal age 14 and never stopped.

I think the history reading really started through reading biographies. To make a long story short - Althougth I've studied Early Russian history, and French History, I've been stuck on England/Scotland for some time. I have read heavily in Early English history and as it was one of the most archetypal militaristic nations naturally (at least I think so) it's centuries of conflict made it easy to be facinated and start wanting to know more about warfare. And when I went to Scotland last year and walked the field of Bannockburn - (with an educator) it was truly a great thrill. The Scots are intensly passionate about their history.

I haven't the slightest idea why it is as passionate a subject to me as it is. I cannot explain even to myself why if I could chose another life, it would be truly intelligent enough to make a career out of it. Although, I have read a great deal, let me say, however, that in no way do I feel I really know it well. I have many more questions than answers.

I do try to read methodically and choose my books well. I've gone to one conference while on vacation in England at the University of York. That was enlightening. I realized I don't know Jack!

Sorry to go on. It's a pleasure to talk about it. Picture my girlfriends over - you know, a hen party - and we're all talking, having fun, laughing. Everyone makes mention about the Maeve Binchy book they're reading or a ditty in Living Magazine :) :) :) and upon asking me I say "I'm reading this great book about this grave site in England where they found these 38 guys buried togther that were in this war - and it's this archeological treatise on the wounds from battle, and all the information they can find out about the battle and their lives and....." .....silence. Okay:rolleyes: Crackers, ladies...........

btw - My dad is reading a book about the Military strategy of Alexander the Great....how did he do it kind of thing. That's next on the list for me?
have you read it, or seen it?

[Hobbit]

Smee...

Interesting bio sketch!:)
...public education - no offense - but mine was a non-event...
No offense taken.....I readily understand the shortcomings of our public education system. I see it every day at the college. A lot of our students come to us from the public system unable to read, or write a coherent sentence.

Sounds as if you made the most of your opportunities. You obviously have succeeded (education) where you could have failed. Your personal interest and drive have served you well.

Reading is a personal thing. I try to encourage everyone to read. If you read continuously for the rest of your life, you would never scratch the surface of even the interesting stuff, let alone all the rest.

Your mental image about your "hen party" is hilarious!:D I could only imagine how it would be!

Alexander the Great is one of the great leaders about which I know very little. I have not seen the book you mention. Perhaps it is an area that I need to explore. I am interested in the Malta book you mentioned earlier. The Turks (Ottoman Empire) is fascinating history, I guess because of the more modern conflicts in the Balkans. This book should add some insight into the historical audit trail for me. Says "Out of Stock".......Hmm..wonder if its out of print??

[smee]

Hey Howard -

I hope you do get that book on Malta. It's a good one. Not only does it go into detail about that event - but it's an interesting intro to the Ottoman Turks and also the Templar Knights. Two diverse and sometimes interwoven subjects!

I am reading a book (two) on Roman History. I usually start with overview history books and find what area interests me. I am amazed at hearing of the same places in the world in conflict as far back as the historical record goes!

I've exhausted a lot of the books on my earlier discussed time period, and I am attempting to delve into the boiling pot that is the thousand plus years of the Roman History record. I don't know about you, but when I walk into a good book store - I usually feel awed, excited and traumatized all at the same time. So many books so little time :drool2: :drool2:

but, all we can do is spend as much time as humanly possible trying to follow what we love. Did I mention Shakespeare?

Read the battle of 1565 and let me know what you think....

Linda

[John Bridge]

Not long ago, William F. Buckley said he figured Erasmus was the last guy who had a chance to learn everything there was to learn in his time. From that point forward, it's been impossible.

A lot of people have said it in different ways, i.e., the longer I live the dumber I get, etc. What really kills me, though, is the realization that I won't even be able to do justice to a specialty. ;)

[Steven Hauser]

Aw Shucks John,

I think you will do a specialty justice, be patient and give it more time.


Steven:)