United We Stand

[HS345]

I attended what I consider to be an historic event today and I wanted to share it with you all.

Today two local churches, one of them I am a member of, and the other is a church my wife and I visit on occasion, had a joint worship service. The two churches are not affiliated in any way, other than their commitment to the body of Christ.

This may not sound like a big deal, but believe it or not, this is not a common occurrence. Ten years ago, it was practically unheard of. I think this was a significant event on a local scale at the very least.

Here's an interesting aside on a personal level. The church which I am not a member of, is my MIL's church. Last summer my wife asked me to go to an outdoor tent service at the "other" church, well being a stubborn creature of habit, I didn't want to. In the end, I reluctantly agreed to attend.....okay, I went kicking and screaming. Well, we get settled in the tent, I'm complaining, it's too hot, I don't know anybody, blah, blah, blah, :blah: The pastor of 40+ years comes to the mike, and announces the "guest speaker". I'm thinking, boy, this just keeps getting better, and better. Well wouldn't you know, the guest speaker is.............my pastor. :o If that doesn't qualify as a little smack onna back of the head from the Big Guy, I don't know what does. Straightened me right up.

Here is a link to a web page advertising the event. I'm not sure how long the page will be up, but I wanted to share.:) http://firstchristian.nextmeta.com/content.cfm?id=2121

Edit: The link only leads to an advertisement of the event. Sorry for not posting sooner, since it was streamed live on both church's websites. I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner. :dunce: :gerg:

[Sponsored Links]

[kate42]

Greg:wave:



I tried to view, but it didn't let me.

I really wanted to hear it.

[Foochacho]

eww religion :sick:

church :tongue:

[HS345]

That's cool Sean, I know some are turned off by religion and church. It's a free country (for now).

What is it you dislike about religion?:)

[Foochacho]

Everything thats the short answer. I think I could right a book longer than the bible about my hate and disgust for religion

[HS345]

Oooookay, If you had to pick the top three, what would they be?

[muskymike]

Yeah, tell us. :shades:

[dgunnels]

Perhaps the objection is to a specific religion or maybe 'organized' religion.

[HS345]

Perhaps the objection is to a specific religion or maybe 'organized' religion.
I suspect that is the case Neesie. Both that is.

Sean, it is not my intention to grill you, or criticize your position on religion, I sincerely want to know what would cause someone to have a "hatred and disgust" for religion, as you put it. As a Christian, I am saddened when I encounter a person who, for whatever reason, has been turned away from God, and or religion.

[Foochacho]

I went to catholic schools my whole life grade school and high school. I also have alot of really religious people in my family. So my hatred isn't from ignorance or anything its just that the bible and all of organized religion is complete bs. The church tries to scare people into believing that they have to believe in what the bible tells them or they will go to hell. In the bible god would punish people for worshiping false gods. Well if thats the case than if christianity is the way then why aren't the hindu's and muslim's being flooded or burned or whatever else god would do to them. Whenever something in the bible doesnt make sense a priest or teacher will tell you that the bible isn't supposed to be taken literally. But then most other stuff in it is supposed to be taken literally. So which is it whats fake and whats not? Why do they say you will go to hell if your not baptized. Baptism is to cleanse of of our original sin from adam and eve who never even existed. If god wants you to worship him every sunday wouldn't he want the whole world doing it. Why has he let all these middle eastern countries go so long without showing them the light. If they don't believe in god they should be going to hell so why would he let millions of people go to hell without helping them. These people don't know any better they believe in what there parents and ancestors believe in so shouldn't he try to help them. Talk to them like he had talked to so many people in the bible send his prophets to save them. Most wars are caused by religion because people can't agree who our god is or what book we should follow. Well the answer is none. None of it is the right religion. If there is a heaven your actions will get you in not your beliefs.

The church is very hypocritical many christians are immoral yet they think they are going to heaven because they believe in jesus and attend church once a week. Its all about fear with the church and it seems that they can do no wrong. If you step out of the box and look at the system without fear of going to hell you may see how stupid all of it really is.

I understand that people want to believe in an afterlife and thats fine I hope there is one but I'm not going to live my life in fear because of a stupid book that some crackpots wrote centuries ago. People back then were ignorant and there minds were easlily manipulated. And these are the people that worte the book you follow. Even a couple of centuries ago people were going crazy over witches. Think about the crap they believed in a couple of thousand of years ago. I bet if I pulled a rabbit out of a hat back then I would be mentioned in the bible as a prophet. Why are we still following these books when we know that most of it never happened. I believe in science and evolution. If there is a god and a heaven then I'm sure I still would get in. Because of my actions, not my beliefs. I'm a moral person and very unselfish to others.

I hate when people try to preach to me and "save" me. I've been an atheist since about sixth grade and my feelings have never changed and never will. I'm not going around trying to preach to people to be atheists so why do they feel they have to preach to me.

[tileman2000]

:corn:

[lou432]

All is understood Sean, you have every right to feel the way you do !
But it is our duty as Christians & our belief that we shall gather the lost sheep & share the gospel of our Lord & savior, we mean no harm so don`t take it personal. You are a proclaimed atheist & in my understanding is "no belief in God of any kind & what he represents, but there is no scripture or books for you to follow as an atheist hence no guidelines or directions or commandments etc.... so why would you preach to others ???? But we that believe have a obligation to God to fulfill his work so thats why we share the glory of our almighty God!


PS>>> Greg kinda uplifting when we can sit with others for a common goal with no distain or judgment in the eyes of our maker huh!

[HS345]

Sean, thanks for responding.

It is very unfortunate that you have been so badly misinformed about the Bible and the nature of God. I get the sense you didn't come to these conclusions quickly, but over the course of years. Therefore it would not be easy to explain to you exactly what you are wrong about.

I won't try to preach to you, but I will offer answers to any questions you may want to ask about the Bible, God, and Jesus Christ.:)

Lou, Amen Brother!

[tilerite]

My bent road to enlightenment:

Growing up Jewish, I was forced to go to Hebrew School and I can honestly say, I hated every minute of it. Being a Jew just never interested me. Anyway, when I was old enough to be my own decider on who I was going to be, I angrily rebelled and declared myself atheist, because it gave me attention and made me feel in control. I was sick of being forced to be a Jew and I was sick of the self-righteous Christians who wanted to save me.

Over many years, my belief system evolved, to a place where I am incredibly comfortable with who I am. While I have no use for religion which in my opinion is 100% man made and is severely infected with agenda, I have become spiritual and I firmly believe that there must be a higher power that created the incredible balance of the universe, if that makes sense. What this power is, I will not pretend to know and I have no idea where we go when we die but I trust it is a peaceful place. At the same time, I have learned to respect all beliefs as long as they do not harm or oppress others.

Being married to a Christian woman has also had a strong effect on how I viewed the world and it was through her that I learned tolerance. I also began to look at myself in a different way. Yeah, we have clashed at times, but there has always been a mutual respect. She is secure in her beliefs and at the same time, she respects and even shares some of mine.

One last note: I understand that most people need something to believe in, hence the reason that so many are affiliated with one particular religion or another. On the other hand, I have a hard time understanding the atheist mind, which basically closes ones self off to ideas and objectivity. I remember when I went through that stage where I considered myself atheist. That was a time in my life when I was extremely self-absorbed and only cared about my own little world and also a time when I viewed religious people as idiots.

Its as if, to be atheist is to rebel against the mainstream. I would say to atheists, just open yourself up to possibilities. Look around, the universe is a wonderous and mostly uncharted place. Are you sure there is not a higher power, I mean, really sure? :)

[Tiletim]

I was going to start typing about how I was brought up and :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: , so instead I will keep it short.

I tend to agree with Sean, I am just not into religion.

I think a comedian said religion is like a contest about who has the best imaginary friend.

Greg, it is very nice to see a community come together as you described, we need a lot more of this !!!!!

[kate42]

said religion is like a contest about who has the best imaginary friend

I love my imaginary friend and find great comfort in Him. :)

[tilerite]

I love my imaginary friend and find great comfort in him.

I have an imaginary friend too. Her name is Jessica Alba :lol1:

[kate42]

I have an imaginary friend too. Her name is Jessica Alba

Do you find great comfort in her?? :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:

[HS345]

Do you find great comfort in her??
:x:

[Tiletim]

Ms. Alba - Now there is something I could pray for !!! :lol1:

Kate, wish your dad a belated happy birthday - 91 is a milestone, I can only imagine the stories he has of life.

Rick, that was good !! ROFL

[tilerite]

Do you find great comfort in her??

More like; cheap thrill :lol1:

[cx]

When little children have imaginary friends, we all think it cute. When they ascribe supernatural powers to their imaginary friends, that's cute, too.

But when adults continue to have imaginary friends with supernatural powers, I begin to worry.

When those adults demand that I respect them for having such imaginary friends, I begin to be a little afraid.

And when those adults demand that I help finance their organization with others sharing these beliefs, requiring that I pay the property taxes on their clubhouses and the salaries of their elected leadership, I worry more and become angry.

More harm has been done in this world throughout recorded history in the name of religion than for any other cause. And ain't any one of'em got any claim to be better about that than any other. Y'all just take turns at it.

Never ceases to amaze me that reasonable people can't come to grips with the fleeting nature of life as we know it without needing to make up an ending that suits them better. Ain't nobody gettin' outa here alive and your imaginary friend can't change that. Couldn't change it for your great grandaddy, nor your granddaddy, nor will he/she change it for your daddy nor for you.

Why is it like that? I got no eye-dee. I do wonder on it, just as you do. If we each hafta be in a category, I'm an agnostic.

The difference is that I'm perfectly willing to admit I don't know, rather than making up an answer out of whole cloth just to be able to say I have an answer, as organized religions are want to do.

One of these eons maybe humans will find an answer to those big questions. But it's likely to take a while, given how little we know about our universe, or even this little bitty planet we live on.

Best we should all be trying to learn more instead of pretending we have the answers. 'Specially when the pretended answers are based upon nothing but beliefs that rely upon these imaginary friends. We gotta be able to do better than that, eh?

[HS345]

As usual cx, you state your position very well. I will not attempt to change your mind. (Wouldn't do no good anyhoo, eh? :D)

For what it's worth, Christianity is far from a blind leap of faith, and most of us Christians don't make anything up out of whole cloth. Lots of evidence. One either has to be blind, or not wanna see it. As I said, I won't try and change your mind, but if you care to ask me any questions, I'll do my best to answer 'em. :)

And when those adults demand that I help finance their organization with others sharing these beliefs, requiring that I pay the property taxes on their clubhouses and the salaries of their elected leadership, I worry more and become angry.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Care to elaborate? :yo:

[tilerite]

Best we should all be trying to learn more instead of pretending we have the answers. 'Specially when the pretended answers are based upon nothing but beliefs that rely upon these imaginary friends. We gotta be able to do better than that, eh?

You might be on to something. Let me confer with my imaginary friend and I'll get back to you. :lol1:

[lou432]

This is all in fun with a bit of seriousness!

God is busy



If you don't know GOD, don't
make
stupid remarks!!!!!!! A United States Marine was attending some college
courses between assignments. He had completed missions in Iraq and
Afghanistan .
One of the courses had a
professor
who was an avowed atheist and a member of the ACLU. One day the
professor shocked the class when he came in. He looked to the ceiling
and flatly stated, 'God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me
off this
platform. I'll give you exactly 15 min.' The lecture room fell
silent.
You could hear a pin drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor
proclaimed, 'Here I am God. I'm still waiting.'
It got down to the last couple
of
minutes when the Marine got out of his chair, went up to the professor,
and cold-cocked him; knocking him off the platform. The professor was
out cold.
The Marine went back to his seat and sat there, silently. The other
students were shocked and stunned and sat there looking on in silence.
The professor eventually came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the
Marine and asked, 'What the heck is the matter with you? Why did you do
that?' The Marine calmly replied, 'God was too busy today protecting
America 's soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid stuff
and act like an idiot. So, He sent me.'

[MudMaker]

I don't attend a church..
Don't read the bible...
but I just have to look at a new born baby and see what a fantastic miracle there is lying there and the engineering that went into that miracle, I can't help believe that something beyond us has had to have created it...
May God bless Ya'll
:)

[Tiletim]

Been a while since I checked back to this thread.

Looks like I may have struck a cord with the imaginary friend thing (not my words, please don't shoot the messenger)

Had no intention of offending anyone.

CX, The $$$$ part of religion has always bugged me the most, much like what you have suggested also.

My parents had a bad experiance with the local church where I grew up (maybe not the church but a pastor)

I grew up in a "more than" comfortable upbringing. One day the pastor pulls my father aside and says we the church would like you to contribute another 10% of income for the "betterment" of the church.

My parents are very generous people, but they were very offended by the response of the pastor when they objected. He said our family was not welcomed there.

My father's response was that if Greed is your main priority then my family will seek a greater good somewhere else, thank you very much.

I know, this is a very isolated case, but it left a lasting impression.

Fast forward to today and it seems like everything is about money.

Did I just open a Pandora's box ?

[bbcamp]

On the other hand, I have a hard time understanding the atheist mind, which basically closes ones self off to ideas and objectivity. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Care to elaborate?Do churches pay property taxes on their buildings, schools and grounds? No, not around here anyway. However, if God shoud determine that the building needs to burn, who responds to the fire? And who pays for that?

[Tiletim]

Bob,

I don't follow you ?

[bbcamp]

I was impressed with the irony of that first quote.

[Tiletim]

Where I live 2 things are a constant, ok 3,

1. Winter is coming or leaving
2. Taxes on everything (I think MN will be the 2nd highest.)
3. And Death

Never been to your part of the country, but would like to, a road called the dragon's tail is calling my name. sportbike nervanna

[HS345]

Bob, are you saying non profits should be taxed?

To imply that churches don't contribute to the community is absurd, the difference is, monies that would otherwise go into the black hole of bureaucracy, are efficiently distributed to charitable causes. What's wrong with that?

[bbcamp]

Non-profits, no. Churches, yes. Churches turn a profit, it's just re-invested in their own self interests.

To imply that churches don't contribute to the community is absurd,I didn't say that. I said that if a church burns, the congregation expects the public fire department to put out the fire. If a church is burglerized, the congregation expects the police to investigate. Both public services supported entirely by tax money. There are other publicly funded services consumed by churches, but you see my point.

...are efficiently distributed to charitable causes.I don't necessarily disagree, either.

What's wrong with that?Nothing wrong with like-minded citizens banding together to do good things. What's wrong is that the property taxes that other folks pay are higher because the property that could be used for other purposes is taken from the tax rolls, leaving the rest of the property owners having to shoulder a bigger burden.

I applaud your generosity. However, your largess may be a bit more constrained if you had to pay taxes on your church's material wealth.

[ddmoit]

I said that if a church burns, the congregation expects the public fire department to put out the fire. If a church is burglerized, the congregation expects the police to investigate. Both public services supported entirely by tax money.Let's not forget who the real thief is. The church doesn't have a gun pointed at the taxpayers - the government does.

Rather than tax the churches, let's stop taxing everybody else. :)

[cx]

Different argument, Dan. Valid, of course, but not really germane. :)

[HS345]

Non-profits, no. Churches, yes. Churches turn a profit, it's just re-invested in their own self interests.
Bob, churches ARE non profit organizations, they do not turn a profit. Prophet maybe, but not profit.:D

I said that if a church burns, the congregation expects the public fire department to put out the fire. If a church is burglerized, the congregation expects the police to investigate. Both public services supported entirely by tax money. There are other publicly funded services consumed by churches, but you see my point.
No, I don't see your point. Actually, let me clarify, I understand the point you are trying to convey, but I think it is flawed. Churches, by default, DO pay taxes, or at the very least lessen the burden to the tax payer. By supporting charitable causes, the church helps to defray the cost of federal entitlement programs. Voluntary taxation, what a concept!! Additionally, by promoting moral behavior, and self sufficiency, church members are much more likely to be productive members of society, again, reducing the burden on tax paying citizens.

And, finally, church members are tax paying citizens. Why wouldn't they deserve public services any more or less than the local Elk's Club, or Moose Lodge? Mebee because they don't serve large quantities of alcoholic beverages to their members? :neesie:

[ddmoit]

Mebee because they don't serve large quantities of alcoholic beverages to their members?Greg, apparently you have not been to some of the Catholic and Serbian Orthodox churches that I've been to.:D

[Crestone Tile]

...church members are much more likely to be productive members of society, again, reducing the burden on tax paying citizens.

:corn:

[HS345]

Dan, I actually was raised Catholic, but at my church, only the priests were allowed to drink large quantities of alcohol, mixed with water of course.:D

[Chris the Rep]

.....By supporting charitable causes, the church helps to defray the cost of federal entitlement programs.

Like these 900 or so congressional earmarks (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/us/20070513_LOBBY_GRAPHIC.html?scp=2&sq=Faith%20based%20earmarks&st=cse) that went to religious based organizations?

Chris

[HS345]

Yes, exactly like that. Religious organizations have a track record of distributing funds MUCH more efficiently than Uncle Sam.

Having said that, I am generally not in favor of earmarks.

I was talking about money that comes directly out of church members pockets and goes directly to charitable causes.;)

[cx]

Churches, by default, DO pay taxes, or at the very least lessen the burden to the tax payer. By supporting charitable causes, the church helps to defray the cost of federal entitlement programs.C'mon, Greg, let's at least try to keep the factual portions of the discussion out of the realm of y'all's faith-based arguments. The churches do not pay property taxes. Other property owners in that jurisdiction must pay more taxes as a result. That's a demonstrable fact.

And the church's "support of charitable causes" may or may not defray the cost of any other tax-supported programs. A great deal of what y'all spend your money on has little or nothing to do with what other citizens might consider good causes.

Additionally, by promoting moral behavior, and self sufficiency, church members are much more likely to be productive members of society, again, reducing the burden on tax paying citizens.Again, we were discussing factual issues of taxation, not what your group would like to believe is real. Especially the "self sufficiency" part.

The members of the local country club are a similar organization, except without the unlawful tax exemptions. If their clubhouse catches fire, I'd expect the local fire suppression agency to respond promptly because the club members pay large dinero in property taxes to support the availability of that service. Yes, their members pay property taxes elsewhere, too, but they also pay a proportionate share on their club property. That's where I see the difference.

And the country club no doubt has some functions during the year to raise dinero for various charitable causes. The functions will generally be primarily for the entertainment of the membership, though, and the actual fund raising for the charity a secondary objective. Just like a church.

But the country club will still hafta pay their property taxes and any paid officers of the club will hafta pay taxes on their income. Unlike the church.

If y'all wanna band together and have whatever social functions y'all want to have on any particular day of the week for whatever reason y'all think appropriate, so be it. If y'all wanna call it a religion, that's fine, too. Indeed, that's spelled out in our founding documents. But when you want, demand, and are given, special privileges and dispensations because you claim your group is somehow different from the members of the country club, I take issue. That's not freedom of anything. That's government sponsorship of your group. Strictly forbidden in our founding documents.

Now, my friend Dan (ddmoit) is gonna claim it's not the church that's at fault there, it's the government that's at fault. The only argument I can make to that is the one I always make, which is that we are the government and therefore we are at fault. Guilty as charged. :)

[bbcamp]

Churches turn a profit, it's just re-invested in their own self interests.To illustrate my point, just look around your community. I'll bet you'll find a church or two that has relocated so they can build a bigger, more elaborate structure for it's members. If the church didn't turn a profit (i.e. collect more revenue than necessary for operations), how did they amass the fortune to buy the new property and build the new church? Building fund? That's just an accounting tool. Churches are businesses. They sell a product. People buy the product. If churches didn't make enough money to cover expenses, they'd close.

[ddmoit]

I hate to get off on another tangent, but the non-profit organization is an unnatural beast created by government. It would not exist in nature. And, as you suspect, Bob, it doesn't really exist at all.

[bbcamp]

The term "non-profit" was coined for tax purposes, which is what this is all about.

Human beings are social animals. Social animals need (by definition) a governing body. Governing bodies need support from the governed. Therefore, taxes are a natural outgrowth of being human.

Human beings have changed and shaped nature. We have the ability to shape our environment so that the weakest among us can survive. Had we not, we would not survive as a group. We exempt the weak from most of the burden of supporting the group. Thus, non-profit exemptions are not "unnatural beasts."

Churches are not weak. They can support themselves without aid from the governing body, and should be required to support the governing body in the same manner as other, non-religious fraternal organizations.

[HS345]

But the country club will still hafta pay their property taxes and any paid officers of the club will hafta pay taxes on their income. Unlike the church.
You use the example of a country club, which is a private FOR PROFIT enterprise. That is why I used the example of an Elk's, or Moose, which are NON PROFITS. Not sure where you get your info, but salaries paid to church employees, including the pastor, are certainly subject to taxes.

I do not understand the tendency of people to have a problem with religious non profit organizations, like churches, but have absolutely no problem with secular non profits like say, The United Way.

That's government sponsorship of your group. Strictly forbidden in our founding documents.
Huh? Could you point me to that section of our founding documents? Especially the "Strictly forbidden" part.:yeah:

[ddmoit]

Could you point me to that section of our founding documents? Especially the "Strictly forbidden" part.Actually, Greg, the way the Constitution is written, the burden is on you to show how any government action is permitted. Of course, nobody in the government troubles themselves with that anymore (well, there is that one guy).

[cx]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,......

That sound familiar to you, Greg?

[HS345]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,......

That sound familiar to you, Greg?
It does, but I can't quite pewt my finger on it.

Seriously though, you are aware that refers to an establishment of a STATE religion, aren't you? I assume those little dots refer to "nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Not that revocation of tax free status would necessarily "prohibit the free exercise thereof", but I don't like to leave out that second part.

Cx, let me ask you. Are you opposed to all non profit organizations receiving tax exempt status, or just churches?

[cx]

Seriously though, you are aware that refers to an establishment of a STATE religion, aren't you?I am aware of some interpretations to that effect but have never accepted any such. That is not what it says. It says no law respecting an establishment of religion, not the establishment of a religion. Says the government will not be involved in religion in any legal way. "Legal" in the context of making laws. Including laws favoring one "religion" over another, regardless who may or may not have established it.

But they do get legally involved, don't they? And they even decide who does and does not qualify as an established religion, don't they?

There should be no laws at all, neither aiding nor hindering your practice of any kinda belief system you might choose. None. Any establishment of religion should not even be recognized by the government. None of government's business. And the government ain't none of organized religion's business, neither. Are you opposed to all non profit organizations receiving tax exempt status, or just churches?Generally all of them, but religious organizations in particular because they, to a far greater extent than other organizations, force themselves upon society in general and expect not only to be given a free ride but to have everyone help to push their wagon.

Y'all wanna have your ceremonies and your rituals and your festivities and your holidays and your weekly or daily meetings and all, please do. But please permit the rest of us not to participate in any of it or finance it on your behalf. That's all I ask. And that's what the Founders intended.

Keep in mind, too, that I am opposed to a tax on people's income in general, Greg. All our arguments here are based upon the status quo, but that doesn't mean I'm in favor of the status quo at all in that regard.

But while we have the federal income tax in place, enforced against us at gunpoint, I'm even more opposed to tax exemptions for "Clergy and Religious Workers" as I believe they're called in the tax codes. There are whole sections of that code spelling out various exemptions for religious leaders that are not available to ordinary citizens. That is an absolute obscenity from a Constitutional standpoint. But that's what we've got, eh?

In fact, I think the only thing more absurd than a preacher being able to say he just doesn't want to participate in the Social Security System because of his religion is my elected federal representatives being able to exempt themselves from it.

But I stray from topic, do I not? :)

[tilerite]

Better not let the reverend hear that. :)

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/27/obamas-former-pastor-builds-a-multimillion-dollar-retirement-home/

[HS345]

Says the government will not be involved in religion in any legal way.
It says no such thing. If I'm wrong, show me.

[Dan Kramer]

I tend to agree with George Carlin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o