Attention Pros

[John Bridge]

Hey,

What do you guys think about starting a new forum devoted to do-it-yourselfers? I enjoy all the professional talk thoroughly, as I know you all do, but I think it might be intimidating to some of the do-it-yourselfers who need questions answered.

If you think about it, you'll notice that we aren't getting too many requests for basic info. At the same time I'm getting beaucoup email requests for basic info.

The forum is billed on the main pages of the site as an advice board, and I really want to help people who are trying to do their own projects. God knows there is plenty of ill advice out there, and we have an opportunity to help correct that.

So tell me. What do you think about a new forum for do-it-yourselfers? Maybe call it the weekend warrior forum or something. Of course, you would be providing the advice, and if you didn't, I'd be disappointed. We should try to aim it, though, at the questions being asked.

In the meantime, I truly enjoy the technical back and forth. I'm learning. We can keep the Tile Forum just as it is -- a bunch of people in the business and the occasional brave weekend warrior.

Give me your feedback, and don't hold anything back. My aim is to make this place comfortable to anyone who happens by.

John

[Sponsored Links]

[chip]

Great idea, maybe you would want to classify each group.

Say maybe D I Y and Professional.

Maybe even Blind leading the blind. Were not done with that one yet.

[Bud Cline]

Personally John, I think you are a glutten for punishment if you do this. Having said that, I think that is a great idea.

I would enjoy participating if you'll have me. I should make some confessions though. "Oh great more confessions", says John.

First of all, my wife and I are on the verge of a divorce after some twenty years of marriage. "Why you ask"? It's because of this stinking computer, I can't stay off the damned thing. So.....be warned, you will no doubt be named in the proceedings, she may even call you as a hostile witness.

These boards are the greatest thing that has ever happened to any of us. I have learned more from this thing than any other source, but I haven't read your book yet.

The second thing you need to know is that I am very outspoken. Oh, you hadn't noticed? Well trust me!

Third, in addition to that, you also need to know that I am not a fan of DIY, period. But I am a fan of the consumer. I am a serious Consumer Advocate. It is for that reason that I participate in a couple of boards. I want the consumer to have straight answers and an opportunity for great success with their projects. They work too hard for their money (as I have done) and it isn't fair that they have only the little boys and girls at the Big Box stores to send them off the deep end for the sake of a sale. At the same time, I beleive every job done DIY is a job that could have gone to a committed professional with a family to take care of. It is very hard for some flooring people to earn a good living as it is.

Fourth,..... well I don't really have a fourth but I was on a roll and typed it anyway. OH WAIT! Yes I do. I think all those "HGTV TYPE D.I.Y. shows SUCK". They are hosted by self serving egotistical string puppets of the advertisers.

Fifth, I hate laminate flooring in it's past and present form. I put that stuff in the same drawer with particle board subflooring. I'll give them credit though, they keep trying.

"Go for it".

[Bud Cline]

How about.....

JOHN'S BRIDGE TO DIY SUCCESS?

[John Bridge]

Well, The forum was created with the do-yourselfer in mind. My book was written for the do-it-yourselfer. I guess you could say I'm a strong supporter of people who want to improve their own homes.

As to taking work from pros with families, I have not found that to be true. In many cases, the job would not be done at all if the person had to hire a pro. In many cases the people are on limited budgets, and in other cases they can't find a qualified pro who want's to mess with their project.

I have worked in several areas of the country, and I have always been in demand. Good mechanics have nothing to worry about. Right now I'm booked into August.

Do-it-yourselfers pose no threat to anyone in the trade, except those at the very bottom of the qualifications list, and some of those people need to be weeded out anyway.

[chip]

I sit right on the fence and agree with both of you whole heartedly.

Boy, did that sound cheesy!

Just like some manufacturers rep, getting around with a red tipped cane.

[Bri]

Grate Idya. Du yu thnk yu cood hav it wit a spall chack.

[flatfloor]

I'm with Flatile, hmm, wonder if we're related?

[John Bridge]

Well, you share a first name -- "Flat."

Bri, Do you suppose we could pirate the spell checker they have on the Info Tile forum? Of course they've probably got it rigged for Australian -- all those extra vowels in the words, etc.

[chip]

I'm opening my own posts thinking they are yours.

welcome back.

what do you think about this expansion, contraction thing on wood substrates?

That couldn't possibly affect a self leveler could it?

Their is really no need for expansion joint material around posts, walls, collumns and the like is there?

John,

I'm sorry, but you just bait me, and I can't leave it alone.

[kalford]

Go for it John.While Bud and I share some of the same views I do agree with you that DIYers are people who have made up their minds NOT to hire a pro anyway.On the other side of that coin,perhaps with some SOUND advise on PROPER installation technics, if they later decide to hire a pro they will be armed with the information they need to hire a REAL PRO like .......one of us!!

Keith Alford
"If it ain't Tile it Sucks"

[Harry]

John

I believe that most DIY's are going to do the work themselves with or without the information of this or any other forum. BUT, if a forum was set up specifically for the DIY it would lessen the amount of intimidation for them "on the forum" while at the same time supplying them with the correct advise to either assist them with a quality project or be the deciding factor for them to hire a tradesman.

Good idea!
Harry

[Sonnie Layne]

Very good observation, John.

I hop in on a couple of painting forums tho' I haven't had time of late and they offer different forums for pro's, homeowners, and even different types of finishes. A lot of cross-over withing them among the pro's, but it does provide a good home and safe port for the consumer. A suggestion, the link from your home page might be the dividing line. If you authored an intermedial page that offered separate links to either pro or diy describing the fundamental differences??

my best

[John Bridge]

Thanks for all your input.

From this day forth the Tile Forum will be the Tile Forum/Advice Board. We'll try to stick to helping do-it-yourselfers get their projects done correctly and pleasingly. Rob Z. is our new moderator.

I've created a new "Professional Hangout" at which we can discuss technical issues among ourselves and any other issue that anyone wants to discuss. Life stories, anecdotes, etc. Anything at all. Non-pros who don't mind listening to the stuff are welcome too. Nothing exclusive here.

Please head over to the Professional's Hangout and post your comments or questions. I'll see you there.

John

[flatfloor]

Hey Flatile, most SLCs when installed on wood are indoors and in a stabil environment ergo, minimum expansion, however after a few conversations with Dave G., I may be having some second thoughts on this, such as the use of Backer Rod around the perimeter. Nothing definitive yet.

[rickbuddy]

Here's a DIYer with two professional comments

First to John. I think you've nailed the problem on the head. It's a problem I professionally advise my clients with a phrase I call "Fear of Entry." An example would be the way Harley-Davidson revamped their retail stores to get at the more upscale clients who could afford their product, wanted to buy their product, but were afraid to enter because they were afraid of the negative stereotypes of bikers. That's one example; there are more.

Second to Mr. Cline. I'd advise you to re-think your approach to the DIY market. Not because I am one (but that does help with some insights) but because you may be misunderstanding the mental processes of the DIYer and may be cutting yourself out of some rewarding work.

The DIYer is very self-reliant. Takes pride in his or her work. And has an underlying mistrust of others doing their work for them. I know this because I have marketed to them (Skil), as well as advised clients to concentrate their efforts against them (Q-Lube).

However, if you gain their trust and work with them, you can profit. I know this both professionallly and personally.

I just spent $38,000 on a rehab job. Of that, $9,600 went to a garage builder, $4,600 to a concrete sub., $3,600 to an electrician $860 to a plumber, $2,500 on Corain countertop work and $8,600 to a flooring sub. That's a lot of cash going around and if I sensed at all that the people I hired were anti-DIY, they were out. That happened with people who bid on the electrical, plumbing and flooring.

That leaves me with around $8,000 for my materials, for tile, mud, factory cabinets, drywall, paint and lumber for built-in cabinets and paneling. Say pros lost another $8,000 in labor, but look at what other pros took home.

I had $38,000 to spend (came in within 5% of budget) and wanted some things I could not afford at the moment. I also wanted to put my mark on the house. Plus, I had better control of sub-contractor timing by assuming some of the responsibilities knowing full well I wasn't going to get lost on another job and delay the job another week or two.

What's more, work with me the right way and you'll be back. I work on the "Here's what I'm thinking in the future, call me when you're slow and we'll see what we can do" basis. I just added an electrician and a plumber to my suppliers list because of this. The plumber who put the kitchen back to code is now negotiating to rehab all my old, galvanized water pipe and my sclerotic cast-iron drains -- when he's slow!

As for the pro who has done nothing more than give advice? There's always times in a DIYers life when "labor of love" turns to just plain "labor." If I were in the Houston area right now, John Bridge would have a good shot at some large projects down the road. Two months of day job, then going home to the "second job" and that's enough to make us long for the two Harley-
Davidson motorcycle's the Missus and I have in the garage.

The marketing lesson is to let the DIYers mindset work for you.

Rick

[Sonnie Layne]

I'm often a DIY'er, say, ohhh, when it comes time to switch the plugs out on my vehicle, or umm rewind the motor on a saw. Or even checking my blood pressure. Where's the barter system that really works? Did greed do it in entirely?

I always think a DIY'er will make me money some day...some day sometimes comes around, in the mean time I just try to do what feels right at the time. Everyone loves to succeed at something, if I can help someone along that path and sleep better for it at the same time, I'm in the game.

my best,
Sonnie

[Rob Z]

The only thing that bugs me about the DIY'er subject is when someone starts off with "I could have done this myself, but I thought I'd have you do it...", and then inevitably follows up with an argument about how things really should be done. The argument is backed up, of course, by the extensive experience they have gained watching 6 episodes of Bob Vila or the husband/wife duo from Minnesota.

Questions from homeowners I love, as well as discussion of what might be the best approach for their job situation and budget. But to get arguments, no thanks. That usually prompts me to leave without giving a bid. If they are that much of a pain in the ass now....

I have helped DIY'ers with their projects, usually by the hour, and usually with the stuff like the mud work or installation of the pan liner. I enjoy it and like to see someone learning to set tile.

Hey Rick, tell us about those Harleys. I've got my eye on the FXDL Dyna Low Rider.

Rob Z

[Bud Cline]

I can usually get the pot stirred with my DIY comments. I know I can't fight such a monster so I don't really try. I participate in another board where questions are 100% DIY launched. My own desire to DIM is what got me in the business more than twenty five years ago.

I also participate over at Flooringinstaller.com where I lobbied fiercely to get them to create a DIY Consumer Board. I had some dreams there at one time. The "cash cow" for FI.com also owns iFloors.com and cornerhardware.com and has a consumer Q&A at iFloors. It doesn't do well, I know where there is a better one.

Since Flooringinstaller.com was not openly associated with the retailer iFloors I felt that was the place to do it. I met with no resistance from management on the idea but when attempting to openly discuss the matter what I did meet with was total silence from management. I had a problem with the concept of using Flooringinstaller.com to prostitute professionals there for the sake of a sale at iFloors. I felt they were providing the site for professionals to be able to use them to promote their own retail sales. I deal with local retailers that wouldn't think much of me promoting an internet retail flooring site. There were others there also that wanted no connection as they too sold product.

My problem with DIY is not with the consumer wanting to mark their territory or save a few bucks. My problem is with the manner in which Big Box Stores and DIY TV market DIY. They save a lot of money for a lot of people while at the same time they can be the cause of a DIY'er trashing their property and emptying their cookie jar in the process. These guys (Big BOxes) don't care about the consumer, they care about selling to the consumer. If they had the consumers best interests for their motivation they wouldn't hire idiots to make their product installations appear easy. I am a consumer advocate, I only wish I knew how to make a living at it. Should I talk to Nader you think?

[John Bridge]

Hi,

I've moved the new thread by Derek and Jacqui over to the Hangout. This one will be moved also, but I'll wait until everyone has had a chance to read it.

[rickbuddy]

Do I think Bud Cline should talk to Nader?

No.

But, Bud, I think you can make some money for your operation being a consumer advocate.

Have you considered sponsoring an advice line in your local Yellow Pages? Or perhaps sitting down on your computer and creating a small "Pro Advice for the DIYer" pamphlet that you can give to an errant DIYer? You'll have an opportunity to air out some some of your concerns regarding home improvement centers and programs. And you'll become an expert in the eyes of the consumer.

Give you a sample question and answer:

Q: What are some of the precautions I should take when shopping at the local building center chain store?

A: Building Centers have been a great boon for many DIYers; it's saved them plenty of money. But a careful shopper can save even more -- in money and heartache. Here are a few things you should know:

* Despite their great inventories, you might not be getting the full product offering from any given manufacturer at a building center . Instead you're getting a limited-selection building center offering. If you can't find the item you want, you may have to special order, and in some cases the product you want may only be available from a professional.

* Many manufacturers have developed special product lines meet the needs of mass merchandisers, and not necessarily the consumer. Those lines may not have all the features that the professionals have available to them, or may be of lesser quality than the contractor-grade products. If you can't find the features you want in a product, or feel you're not getting the rugged qualities you demand for your home, you may want to seek advice from a pro.

* Beware of "guaranteed low price" items. Many mass merchandisers will specify one or two unique, but minor features on a stripped down product and offer money-back refunds if you can find the same product elsewhere at a lower price. The trouble is you can't find that exact product anywhere else because that model was made specifically for that retailer. Many times you'll be able to find something a bit better elsewhere for less money.

--

By giving out this kind of advice, you become the trusted friend of the DIYer and that can pay off in future projects. I'm not even going to get into the issue of getting into the heads of the spouses of DIYers, who are terrified their own little Bob Villa will ruin the house.

Just some simple marketing advice & spice for the well-stirred pot.

Rick

[Bud Cline]

rickbuddy,

That's some resume (profile). Since my reading retention level is somewhere near that of a large turkey in the fall of the year, I'll be rereading your post (several times), you make some interesting points, certainly worth looking into.

Maybe you should look into exercising your comedic abilities by writing for Villa, he seems to have one of the funnier shows in TVDIYLAND.

I take your comments as supportive and encouraging, Thank You.

[Sonnie Layne]

Rick, your experience in marketing is appreciated.

I had no problem reading and understanding what you were explaining in one pass. They were good points, but issues that have been understood by anyone with the total outlook of the market-at-large for well, since Henry Ford, I guess. Just makes sense. No one can offer everything, but with having my orders delivered in a 2 hour window, having my orders pulled for pick-up the next morning and loaded in my vehicle, having someone call a manufacturer to get the right answer and have a 5" sanding pad shipped directly to me, billed to my account, offering tool rental for the things it doesn't pay to own and having said tools maintained, dated and stamped in workable condition at less than 10% of the retail value,,,,I'd say they get pretty damned close to filling the total bill.

Still, I like to shop my neighborhood hardware/lumber yards, I like to buy my sheetrock (or have it delivered) from a local concern who deals solely in the product. I've never seen anything like ultra-flex offered in a department store.
I've seen what the likes of Wal-Mart do to a local economy of small-moderate size. Still, I live in a big city where none but a few locals can even afford to pay the taxes on the building and property to maintain a decent business/inventory. I do what I can to support them, they are my neighbors and clients, but they know their own limitations.

As JPB has stated before, there are locals that suddenly can't keep the staff that seems to care or intend to learn. I don't go there. There are still a few places that pour you a cup of coffee, know me by first name and are apologetic, at least when they can't offer 3/4" fire-rated sheetrock at a competitive price. I still drink their coffee and spend enough that they can pay their bills. We find it's a mutually enjoyable experience, with absolute cyclic response in the local economy and recapitulative in building good business.

I'm tired after all that....chuckles

[John Bridge]

You SHOULD be tired. "Recapitulative"?

[chip]

There is alot of slu on slabs as well.

And if they don't move then why the need for expansion joints?

We have found that columns and perimiter walls all should have a backer rod type of material to protect from movement.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, like Bud, my wife is about to shoot me. I can here it now from all over the world,"pull the trigger", "shoot the son of a gun".

Art Phenis

[John Bridge]

I'm sorry, Art. It's been a long post. "Slu"?

And if you want to discuss expansion joints around columns, etc., let's start a new discussion. I'll shed as much darkness on the subject as I can.