Surfactants -

[rshanna]

I read online that Surfactants will penetrate through the pores of the dirty tile and actively lifts out grime. What is this and where can I find it?

Does anyone know if it really works?

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[Mike2]

Shanna: Indeed, surfactants really do work. The thing is though, you can't go out and just buy a bottle of them. Surfactants are agents added to a variety of water-based products to reduce the surface tension. When used in cleaning products they allow that product to penetrate and "break up" the dirt and grease, keeping it in suspension for rinsing and subsequent removal.


Among a variety of other things, surfactants also enhance the performance of the impregnating sealers we use for both tile and grout.

:)

[rshanna]

Hi Mike,
This is wonderful news!!! I presume that I can buy Surfactants in a hardware store or do I get them someplace else? Is there a brand name or do I just ask for Surfactants?

I do realize that I need to seal the groat but you mentioned sealing the tile as well. Do I use a special sealer if I want to seal the groat AND the tile? If so, what do I ask for? Do I need more than one application?

I really appreciate whatever information you can give. We are living in Costa Rica so will have to see if I can get what I need here. They have more products available than other countries, so I am hoping I can find what I need.

Thanks again! You don't know how excited I was to get your reply because I have literally tried about a couple dozen products (some quite caustic) and nothing has cleaned the spots on the tile. The tile definitely needs something to lift out the dirt.

[esobocinski]

Shanna, Mike mistyped: You can't just buy surfactants in a bottle. They're always part of a bigger formulation. (Er, I guess you could probably buy them from a chemical company or lab supply, but it'd take a chem degree to know if you were getting what you want).

And that's just as well, since you need a surfactant that matches your use. There are thousands of surfactants, and dozens of general types. Surfactants are used in things as varied as dish soap, laxatives, paint, insecticides, and of course grout sealers and grout cleaners. I'm pretty sure you'd be unhappy if the surfactant you got was the type used in laxatives. :wtf:

"Surfactant" is the proper name of what my grandparents called "a wetting agent". Basically, it is a bridge that causes something to dissolve or penetrate more easily into something else that would normally resist it. For dish soap, the goal is for cooking grease to dissolve in water. For grout sealer, the goal is to reduce water surface tension so that the sealer mix penetrates better and deeper into the grout. For grout cleaner, the goal is to make dirt prefer dissolving into water and release it from grout particles so that you might rinse it out.

See where this is going? A surfactant doesn't do any useful work on its own, it only works with something, so you'd want to match the surfactant to the substance you want to move (or remove), and then you need a method of removing it and the offending substance from the grout. Put that together in one bottle and you have a "grout cleaning solution". And that's what you want to buy, not the isolated surfactant.

Nothing is magic, of course. Getting anything out of grout is hard. Using a surfactant-enabled cleaner helps, but it's probably not going to "just work", and it probably won't be perfect even if you work hard with it.

[Mike2]

Yeah, that was a mucho grande typo which I've since fixed. You can't go out and just buy a bottle of them. Sorry about the false alarm, Shanna.

Alternatively, most any good cleaner you buy for your tile and grout will contain surfactants.

[rshanna]

Well, I guess I don't have as much hope as I thought I had but I will keep trying. I have used grout cleaner and it does well with cleaning the grout but it doesn't take the dirty looking spots off the tiles.

I did see something called Sealant remover at $55 a gallon. Nothing so far has had any significant effect so I hate investing in such a large amount if it isn't going to do anything...but maybe that is what I need to try.

[Mike2]

StoneTech has some excellent cleaners you might want to try. Depending upon the type type of stains you have, KlenzAll or Restore might just be the ticket. You'll find them sold here in the TYW online store.

My advice is, if you can wait until Monday morning, give their Tech Support line a call and ask for some free samples to try. 1-888-STONEHELP (786-6343)

:)

[doitright]

Hi Shanna, Welcome! :)

Can you give us more information of the tile you are trying to clean? :shades:

What type of tile is it? How old is the installation? What type of caustic solutions have you tried that didn't work?

It would also help if you could attach a photo.

[rshanna]

It is a ceramic tile that is semi rustic. It has a glaze but there are porous spots (indentations).

This tile was probably installed about 15 years ago...but the damage took place over a period of about the last 5 years. The previous renters continuously applied wax to the floor.

There was a very thick layer of blacken dirty wax that was peeled off but there remains darkened spots and very dirty grout that give the impression that several people have walked over a wet floor with dirty shoes.

I have tried cleaning it with:
regular tile cleaner
wax remover
different cleaning agents such as a type of PineSol, Zoom, Ajax, SoftScrub
Draino
Extra-strength Ammonia
Bleach
Muric Acid
Toilet bowl cleaner
Hot vinegar
Boiling water
grout cleaner with a wire brush (works on the grout but did nothing for the dirty spots on the tile.

Also a cleaning company did 2 test areas with 2 different chemicals applied with a special rotating brush with 60 lbs of extra weight on it. This had no noticeable results.

I am attaching a file and will also try to attach an additonal one.

Someone mentioned that I should try oven cleaner???? Hummmm????

So you can see we have tried many products...and are willing to try ANYTHING! So whatever advice you can give us, we will be very grateful!!!

[rshanna]

Here is another photo.

[rshanna]

Would this (some sulfamic acid crystals) help lift out the dirt+wax from the tile crevices? If so, can I get this at a hardware store? Or is it something that I would get in a product?

[JTG]

Do a test on a couple tile with WD-40. Spray on a good layer and let it cook on there for 15-20 minutes and then clean it off and see if it does anything.
That doesn't work go to a place that sells supplies to mason's. Sureclean 600 is a product I have used that seems to take almost anything off of tile but it is a strong acid and you have to be carefull not to get it on any furnature, metal or clothing you don't want any damage to.
Good Luck
JTG

[GeorgeT]

That is some nasty residue... Since the list of products you've already tried includes some strong acid products and some strong alkaline products I'd suggest two directions to try next.
First would be to continue working with some of the products you've already tried but to start adjusting the method of use. Anything that has already made a difference is a candidate for further trials. Dilutions, dwell times, and agitation methods all can be adjusted and perhaps you will find that simple changes to your methods are an answer.
Second would be solvents... I don't see any solvents in your list and this residue may be solvent sensitive... Lacquer Thinner is one solvent worth trying.
Do you know what products were actually applied to the floor by the previous inhabitants?
What chemicals did the cleaning company try?
Oven Cleaners tend to be very strong alkaline cleaners designed to loosen and dissolve organic residues... could work, but I would be very cautious and only try a small inconspicuous area.

[rshanna]

Would mineral spirits be the same as laquer thinner because I forgot to mention that we tried that too? We also tried WD40 to no avail.

[GeorgeT]

Happy New Year!

Mineral Spirits is not the same as Lacquer Thinner. Lacquer Thinner is a more agressive solvent.
I also want to ask how you applied and used these different products. In my previous post I'd mentioned that " Dilutions, dwell times, and agitation methods all can be adjusted..." and these separate items can all be crucial in a successful cleaning job.
Sometimes the process and not the product can be the key.
What you are up against here is something that is not that unkown to restoration professionals, but it is something they too also struggle with; trying to find the right combinations of product and processes to finish the job.

[rshanna]

First of all THANKS to all of you for pitching in and trying to help us solve this problem. We have no one else to turn to.

As soon as the stores reopen in the New Year, we will try lacquer thinner.

OK, about the other products, this is what we have done:

regular tile cleaner..put on full strength, let it set for 10-20 minute. Scrubbed with a stiff brush.
wax remover (EasyUp) put on full-strength (we first tried it diluted as directed). Let it set for about 1/2 hour and scrubbed with a scrub brush
different cleaning agents such as a type of PineSol, Zoom, Ajax, SoftScrub: All of thes were let soak for at least 1/2 hour and scrubbed with a stiff brush and some with a copper wire brush. The Ajax was applied as a paste.
Draino: We put the crystals on the floor and poured water over the crystals.
Extra-strength Ammonia: Full strength and left set for 1/2 hours.
Bleach: Full strength (5.25%)
Muric Acid: full strength...left set a bit and scrubbed with copper wire brush.
Toilet bowl cleaner: Full strength. Let soak for about 1/2 or more and scrubbed with wire brush.
Hot vinegar. Full strength...let soak and scrubbed with wire brush. With a lot of elbow grease, this cleans the groat fairly well. We even tried adding Baking soda.
Boiling water. Poured on and scrubbed. Didn't seem to do anything.
grout cleaner with a wire brush (works on the grout but did nothing for the dirty spots on the tile. This we sprayed on and let set 15-1/2 hour and scrubbed with wire brush. This worked well on the groat but didn't seem to improve the tile.
Mineral spirits full strength and scrubbed with copper brush. Didn't show any change.
Someone also mentioned Magic Sponge and GooGone...neither did anything.
If you need anything more specific or additional info, let me know.

[rshanna]

I saw a product at the hardware store in the section by grout cleaner and sealer that was called Sealer and Adhesive Remover but it didn't list the ingredients. It was very expensive. I would kinda like to know if it will work before purchasing yet another product. It only comes in gallon jugs.

What do you think this could be and do you think it is worth a try? If there might be hope, I would give it a try. I just don't want to purchase it unnecessarily out of ignorance.

[GeorgeT]

There are a couple of different manufacturers with products of that title. Some are similar to the Coating Stripper we manufacture.... water based based, long dwell time products. Others are faster acting, strong solvent chemistry products... Prop 65 type chemistries, nasty but fast. These types of products will be your next step after plain solvents....
Thank you for the list of processes. It helps determine if anything already tried deserves a second (or third) attempt.
Was the grout cleaner an acidic type product?
Did the muritatic acid have any effect?
The vinegar is an acid also. Acids often work not because they are dissolving the coating but because they are breaking down the grout....

[rshanna]

The vinegar helped a bit with the grout but not the tile. Grout cleaner worked better.

Muritatic acid didn't seem to do anything, which I thought was strange.

I have no idea what type of product or what ingredients are in the Sealer and Adhesive Remover because there is nothing on the jug that shows that.

I will check on the grout cleaner when we go over to the house to see if it is an acidic type product. I don't know.

[az]

I think I looked at all the products you have tried, I didn't see a stripper. ?? Have you tried a stripper? You mentioned the renters waxed the floor, with this in mind I would be looking for a finish stripper, usually a butyl based product. I don't know what is available to you, so I don't know where to tell you to go. If a regular butyl based stripper does not work, then you will have to go to Methylene Chloride, such as Jasco stripper or Aldon chem's Premium Stripper.

To get an idea of what I am talking about, go to

http://www.aldonchem.com/pr-premium-stripper.htm
http://www.hillyard.com/ProductsServices/PSProductsFrame.asp


Usually if there is a "wax" on the floor, you will see some of it come off with laquer thinner, but not always.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Kerry

[az]

I forgot to mention, Methylene Chloride is a bugger. Solvent resistant gloves, mask, and goggles are required. Jasco has a non-flammable version, which I would recommend.

[GeorgeT]

Shanna -
The products that Kerry talked about are that next level of cleaning agents I mentioned earlier in a post. Since your outside the US the stuff that got used on your floor could easiliy be products not allowed in the States any more... and some of those may require the power of the strong chemical strippers....