A letter from one "angry woman"

[Davy]

Recieved this email from a good friend in California, thought I'd share it. :)



Letter from one "Angry Woman"

I don't know who wrote it but they should have signed it. Some powerful
words. This woman should run for president.

Written by a housewife from New Jersey and sounds like it! This is one
ticked off lady.

"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not
started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11,
2001?

Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally
murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac from our
nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible,
burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed t o care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when
an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?...Well, I don't.
I don 't care at all.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for
incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start
caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in
Saudi Arabia .

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off
Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed
throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and
fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in
mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of
nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide
bombs.

I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First
Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead
of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the mean time, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up
an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have
been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest
assured: I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not
to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank:
I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat,
and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is
complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely
believe in your heart of hearts: I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and
other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and-you guessed it-I don't
care!!

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your E-mail
friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this
ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you
choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities
committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great Country! And may I
add:

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a
difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem" --
Ronald Reagan

I have another quote that I would like to add AND.......I hope you
forward all this.

"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a
nation gone under." Also by.. Ronald Reagan

One last thought for the day:

In case we find ourselves starting to believe all the Anti-American
sentiment and negativity, we should remember England 's Prime Minister
Tony Blair's words during a recent interview. When asked by one of his
Parliament members why he believes so much in America, he said: "A
simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in..
And how many want out."

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

[Sponsored Links]

[kate42]

Davy :wave:

:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/flags/usaflag2.gif (http://www.millan.net) http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/military.gif (http://www.millan.net)

[HS345]

Davy, :goodpost:

It's on the way to everyone I know. :usflag: :usflag: :usflag: :usflag:

[esobocinski]

<sigh> It's letters like this that have the Muslims in my neighborhood scared. The ones who came here wanting to start a new life, who became citizens, who want to be upstanding Americans. Or second and third generation Americans whose parents or grandparents did that, just as my Polish and German ancestors did.

These are the same born-in-the-USA proud Americans who have had the walls of their businesses plastered with American flags since 2001 because they're afraid of getting rocks or gunshots through their windows, or worse, from people with attitudes like the writer of this letter. Who talk of building their next mosque in a hidden neighborhood to avoid the risk of getting bombed.

Of course, we put Japanese-ethnicity Americans through worse 65 years ago. And German-origin Americans 90 years ago. I had hoped we'd become better than that since those embarrassments. Maybe we haven't. So much for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

And, no, only the smaller of our two current little wars is a war on terror. (You remember we still have two, right?). Iraq is about something else. I'm not sure what, but it isn't about terror.

[ddmoit]

She's angry alright - and irrational.

Sorry folks, I don't hear patriotism, I hear nationalism.

We're all angry about 9/11, but it's no reason to take leave or our senses.

[KenH83]

esobocinski,

Then maybe those people should group together and show us their support instead of acting scared.

One thing I think YOU'VE possibly forgot is the long number of years those terrorist plane hijackers from 9/11 were here. Do you remember? I'm 24 and there were terrorists for that plot here since I was in diapers.. .. I know this sounds like i'm profiling.. but shit, I'm scared honestly about them crazy bastards doing something a lot more radical than what has already been done. I dont wanna go on and on, but in the back of my mind and I'm sure a lot of other Americans agree.. What if they hit our power grid system in a stratigic way? Fresh Water supplies destroyed by harmful bio grade materials? Dont get me wrong I still think about the people who we lost on 9/11 but lets face it, they could hurt us far more... its not a question of "if" its, "when". Their culture of people have hated us for 100's of years.

** My opinion.. Sorry if I've offended anyone politically or personally, its just how I currently feel about these issues.

** Also like to re-iterate that anyone that comes here LEGALLY and has the drive to be successful here, great. I think its good.. We just have to watch our BACKS PEOPLE. Lets face it, people HATE our society and YOU know it.

[HS345]

Nationalism is NOT irrationalism.

I think we could use a little more nationalism these days.

Why would any patriotic (or nationalistic) American, Muslim or not, be afraid of anything written in that letter? Especially in Michigan.

Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

[esobocinski]

Heh. Three Michiganders in a row. Where ya from, Ken?

Yes, the terrorists were here a long time. Tim McVeigh lived here his whole life before committing the second largest terrorist act on American soil. Should we hate and fear all white Michigan farmers? Destroy Michigan soybeans?

Right after 9/11, most of these folks did group together and showed their support as Americans, that they were just has horrified as everyone at what had happened. You remember? Of course not; it got almost no news coverage. I guess the release of the Paris Hilton sex tape was more important.

[Jim Farrell Tiler]

well in little old Dunedin in the south island of New Zealand i read in this mornings paper that a 22 year old Australian was in court for throwing a snow ball at a work mate WTFs that about. Unfortunatly the USA is portrayed as the bad guy to the rest of the world in the media we get here, but i agree with the email....walk softly but cary a big stick :tup1:

[KenH83]

From Grand Rapids.. I'm not saying some groups never did or didnt show support as americans before or after 9/11. What is relevant here more than anything else is the fact that muslim extremists want to kill us. I'm saying no more or no less.

[MudMaker]

Sorry folks, I don't hear patriotism
I do..
Hear what you want Dan..
Come to this Country to become one of us, not to separate us..
I'm afraid that most Muslims do not want to Join us, they want to make the U.S. conform to their customs, not ours..
and... that teenager that was killed by her Muslim father recently for becoming too western, probably deserved it - right??

Tim McVeigh lived here his whole life before committing the second largest terrorist act on American soil.
You know, there are crazies all over but you can bank on one thing - the bible doesn't say Kill all the Infidels... It's the religion...

[KenH83]

Or how about that muslim girl who went to the police and said she was raped, is now in jail for it. 200 lashings too if i remember correctly.

But I guess she deserved that too didnt she?

[MudMaker]

I did say it's a crazy religion - right?
I personally don't want anything to do with them...
Right on Ken...

[tilerite]

Outside of the religious statements, I totally agree with that person.

[HS345]

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and
other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and-you guessed it-I don't
care!! :rofl: :lol2: :lol1:

[jvcstone]

I'm afraid that most Muslims do not want to Join us, they want to make the U.S. conform to their customs, not ours..

What a load of crap this statement is. Where are ideas like this birthed??

Most Muslims want to live peaceful and productive lives just like most Christians, Buddhists, Hindi and any other way you want to define a person through their belief system. By making broad irrational statements about any one particular group makes you no different than the radicals who may make broad irrational statements about your group.
Seems to me that the Bible too has it's share of killing "infidels" in it, and it also seems to me the "Christian" portion of it constantly refers to peace, not war. Never ceases to amaze me how a staunch prolifer can also be so pro war. Hypocracy of the grandest sort I would think.

.. I know this sounds like i'm profiling.. but shit, I'm scared honestly about them crazy bastards doing something a lot more radical than what has already been done

Congratulations for buying into the neocon strategy of fear mongering. Let the government take all your freedom away for a little security then. Bin Laden may have used a spectacular means of getting this countries attention for our history of screwing with middle eastern internal affairs, but your government used that one event as a launching pad for the soon to be total dismantling of our constitution and the end of the American dream.

IMHO, the citizens of this country need to worry more about what the snakes in Washington are doing to us that what a handful of crazies camping out in the mountains of ToraBora might be planning next. Never , ever believe any thing coming out of the mouths of Washington insiders. They are interested in only one thing, and it is Not the wellbeing of the American citizen.



JVC

[tilerite]

Congratulations for buying into the neocon strategy of fear mongering. Let the government take all your freedom away for a little security then. Bin Laden may have used a spectacular means of getting this countries attention for our history of screwing with middle eastern internal affairs, but your government used that one event as a launching pad for the soon to be total dismantling of our constitution and the end of the American dream.

OMG, our constitution has been dismantled?? When did this happen?? Where the heck have I been?? I have Christmas shopping to do and now I'm afraid to leave my house. Their gonna get me aren't they?? Oh dear, oh my. Whatever shall I do?? Those darn neocons, they've ruined everything, lmao!! :rofl:

[muskymike]

Good post Davy. :usflag: :tup1:

[Saldibs]

It is not Christians, Buddhists, Hindi, Jewish religion nor are Atheists trying to destroy the American way of life, although all types have there cooks and nuts. It is the Muslim extremist that is trying to bring us down, and the key word is "Extremist" so any anger directed at them is rightfully done so.

[jvcstone]

our constitution has been dismantled?? When did this happen?? Where the heck have I been??

Apparently asleep. But please notice I was speaking in the future tense-you're the one who has placed it in the present.

Admittedly, the erosion of the constitution began right from the gitgo. However, since 9-11, that erosion has become a landslide.
Start with the famous patriot act which is anything but. Then there is the little mentioned military commissions act. Already passed the house as HR 1955, and now in front of the Senate is the "homegrown Terrorism act", which if passed does away with most of the bill of rights ( which have been chewed on for years, but still important to a free society) Add to these acts of unconstitutional legislation, the concentration of power in the executive branch, and a legislative branch that refuses to fulfill it's obligations to the people to be a check against the very type of power grab we have witnessed.

Maybe it's OK with you to live in a fascist dictatorship, but personally, I'm against it. It really bothers me that the government can access so much of my personal life, and screw with my freedom of choice in so many areas. If you spend any time at all looking into just what the aforementioned legislation, plus some recent presidential directives, actually say when added together, you too may see that it only takes one "national emergency" (so loosely defined that anything could be construed as such) for that complete dismantling to become a reality. On the other hand, we won't need it any longer once the true intent of Nafta/Cafta etc becomes reality. Because we have become a nation of uninformed, (watching, reading and listening to the national propaganda machine better known as MSM does not count as being informed) lazy, self indulgent sheep, it has been rather easy for the wolves to play that fear card and offer you "protection" from the "terrorist" (name your personal boogieman) in the closet. As long as there is Paris and Brittany, steroid "scandals" and not enough Wii"s to go around, made for TV "reality" shows to distract the masses, those who would rule can do as they will.

I'd remind you that not too many years ago a small group of men with big enough stones to do the undoable, threw off the yoke of a government not much different than the one we now see rapidly gaining ground in our nation's capitol. Government of the people by the people , for the people no longer is relevant, or desirable, when big money controls the strings. Maybe this new American revolution that seems to be gaining traction in so many unlikely places, can do the same, and get this country back on track. One can only hope so, for our grandchildren if nothing else.

JVC

[ddmoit]

Hey as long as I'm not doing anything wrong, I have nothing to hide. Who cares about the Patriot Act, right?

Wrong.

All it takes is a pissed off neighbor to get you in trouble. If the feds decide to raid your place, they can do it without a court-ordered warrant. And they don't have to tell you that they're searching your place, or even what they took. If you happen to find out, you cannot tell anybody - even your lawyer or your spouse, or you will be in violation of the law.

If they confiscate your property, good luck getting it back. Even if they never charge you with anything, you must prove that your property was not involved in the commission of a crime to get it back. Your property is basically guilty until proven innocent at your expense.

Example: The Liberty Dollar headquarters was recently raided by the FBI. No one has been arrested or charged with a crime. Yet the FBI is already moving to auction off the precious metals they confiscated.

[jvcstone]

It is not Christians, Buddhists, Hindi, Jewish religion nor are Atheists trying to destroy the American way of life, although all types have there cooks and nuts. It is the Muslim extremist that is trying to bring us down, and the key word is "Extremist" so any anger directed at them is rightfully done so.

Sorry, Sal, but even the Muslim "extremist" don't have anything against the American way of life, or our "freedom" If that were the case, there would be an awful lot of other countries in their bomb sites too. Besides, how would one determine that the muslim store keeper down the street is an extremist or not just by looking, eh?

The Muslim "extremist" have a problem with our foreign policy towards their homelands, and would really like us to go play elsewhere--period. Bin Laden has not been shy about why his group put together the 9-11 attack even though the final result was more than he had anticipated or wanted. The honest assessment reached by the 9-11 commission, the Cia, and others, and spoken about by Ron Paul in the debates is not the same as the administration propaganda espoused by the pundants and entertainers of the MSM. Blow back is the term used, and contrary to those who would like you to believe that means we deserved it, that it was our fault, and thus not valid, it merely refers to the fact that aggression against us is a predictable result of our foreign policy in that part of the world over the past 60 years if not longer. If the shoe was on the other foot, we would be the "terrorist" for fighting for our sovereignty. Some how, we have gotten the self opinion that the USA's **it doesn't stink, and we have been ordained as boss of the globe. Just as a playground bully has for friends only those willing to be subservient to his bullying, and everyone else plotting some sort of "payback", we find ourselves in a world that questions more and more our true intentions. But, not to worry. If our monetary crisis is not dealt with real soon, we won't be able to play with the big boys for much longer anyway.

JVC

[tilerite]

Maybe it's OK with you to live in a fascist dictatorship

No, its not ok, John. That would suck. Thank God I live in the United States and don't have to worry about that. I can see where someone who is not a law abiding citizen may worry about being watched. Because I behave myself, I 'm confident that my rights are still in place just as they always have been, and if my government has to listen in on phone conversations, at a time when murderous extremists would chop off the heads of our children (yes, your children too), then I thank God that they are looking out for those of us who behave ourselves and try to do the right thing.
Now, if you disagree with me and have some kind of proof that our government is targeting innocent citizens, I would love to hear what you have to say. If not, you would serve your credibility best by being an objective thinker, rather than buying the false hateful garbage that the media continues to spew.
Your rights are still in place and protected. I have no doubt about that.

[tilerite]

we have been ordained as boss of the globe

If we don't police the world, who will?? Its not like any other nation has stepped up to the plate to combat fascism, communism and other forms of totalitarian rule. Yes, we have made many mistakes. No argument there, but imagine the world if the United States had just minded its own business as many Americans desired in the beginning of World War II. Imagine if we left Europe after World War II. Imagine the Soviet Union still in place. Imagine nuclear missiles in Cuba, aimed right at us. Imagine N. Korea being left alone, as they were during the Clinton years. Imagine Iran in a few years, if we just backed off and left them alone. How many other spots in the world, would be better off without the US? Would S. Korea be better off? Would Kosovo be better off? Would Kuwait be better off if we had not interceded after Saddam invaded? I could go on and on and on. The majority of the free world can thank the United States of America for their freedoms. Without us, the world is a giant piss hole!
God Bless America, land that I friggin love!!!!!!!.

[Shooter]

Good for her! I feel the same way and I could care less if anyone is offended by it!

[ddmoit]

Rick,

If we would have stayed out of WWI, it would have ended in stalemate, and there would not have been a WWII. Instead, our participation in WWI led to the Treaty of Versailles which all but guaranteed a vengeful Germany. We basically rolled out the red carpet for the emergence of a Hitler (not that we meant to).

I bet most Americans don't even know what WWI was about or why one side was so much better than the other side that we had to join them.

The net effect of our meddling falls easily in the negative column.

[Shooter]

Hitler was a direct result of not placing or holding Germany more accountable. The Treaty of Versailles was a joke. In the long run it did little to penalize Germany and did more harm to the rest of Europe. This basically left Germany to do as they chose, continually ignoring the treaty without consequences. The treaty left Germany still more powerful than its neighbors which in essence left them to be a developing threat that a mere 2 decades later allowed them to become the most powerful force in Europe and Germany became ripe for a Hitler. So yes perhaps we were responsible for a Hitler but that is because we didn't follow through and finish the job.

We shoulda crushed Germany pushing them back into the stone age and then turned on the Frenchies, bitch slapping them some more and left them happy with whatever we decided to allow them to have afterwards. Then we should have split up Europe 60/40 with the Britons. To the victor go the spoils.

[tilerite]

I admit I'm far less schooled in WWI as I am about WWII, but there were other factors in play that led up to WWII also, including the Japanese attacking us.
Be that as it may, had the powers to be of Europe interceded, before Hitler became omnipotent, war in Europe could have been diverted. I'd rather be proactive than reactive.

[sandbagger]

It's letters like this that have the Muslims in my neighborhood scared.Scared of what? (or whom?) Are they scared enough to become the modern-day Muslim version of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team of WWII? (http://www.scu.edu/SCU/Programs/Diversity/442nd.html) "Despite the rampant racism towards towards Japanese Americans during this period, many volunteers felt that if there was to be any future for Japanese in the United States, they had to demonstrate their loyalty by fighting for their country."I sure don't see it. :shake: Sadly, there is too much evidence that Muslims are far more afraid of their fellow Muslims than anything we could possibly come up with in the US. When they're scared enough to leave the US for the "safety" of a Muslim country I'll get concerned.

Sorry if I sound like a red-neck hard-ass on this, but I'm tired of pandering to these people and all the political correctness. And I'll worry about the treatment of the Quran when Saudi Arabia stops confiscating Bibles in the airport and burning them.

[tilerite]

We shoulda crushed Germany pushing them back into the stone age and then turned on the Frenchies, bitch slapping them some more and left them happy with whatever we decided to allow them to have afterwards.

You're damn right!!

[jvcstone]

No, its not ok, John. That would suck. Thank God I live in the United States and don't have to worry about that.

May I suggest that you sit down and read the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, the Violent radicalization and Homegrown terrorism prevention act. (HR1955) (which is not yet law but had no opposition to speak of in the house) The text of all can easily be found through google. Then add things such as presidential directives nspd-51, and hspd-20. And then ask your self why so much Homeland Security money (originally Fema money) has been paid to KBR for the construction of "detention"centers all across this country in anticipation of a "National Emergency" (again so loosely defined that it could be anything the commander in chief or his string pullers so choose)., and why so much executive branch money has been given to private armies who's only allegiance is to the paycheck signer. After reading all of that, then ask yourself if there isn't anything to worry about.

You, like the rest of the sheeple conditioned to believe that the government always acts in the best interest of the people, will probably think so, but as you rest easily in that believe at night, give thanks for the few true patriots out there fighting for your rights even though you think you don't need them because you always obey the law. Remember that when it is your particular "group's" turn in the barrel-- "you didn't have to worry about that"

JVC

[dl]

quotes from the holy book:

“Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.”

“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people . . . If thou shalt hear . . . Certain men . . . have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.”

“If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.”

“Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.”

“They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.”



the Bible

1 - Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT
2 - Deuteronomy 13:6-15
3 - Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB
4 - Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT
5 - 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB

- DL

[sandbagger]

ever hear of the Reformation, Don? Christianity had one. Islam has not. You're going to have to do better than quoting the Old Testament.

And while you're searching for new evidence that the Bible promotes violence, how about finding those passages for the Christian version of jihad? You know, the ones that sanction Catholic choir boys strapping on bombs and blowing up Baptist (or Lutheran, or Jewish, or Hindu, or Muslim, or.....) women and children. I'm sure it's in there somewhere, eh? :rolleyes:

[ddmoit]

ever hear of the Reformation, Don? Christianity had one. Islam has not.Art,

Do you believe that all practitioners of Islam justify violence in the name of their religion? Or, is it just most of them? Or perhaps a minority?:shrug:

[sandbagger]

what's the difference, Dan? It's happening all over the world with the blessing of Islamic clerics - the folks who have all the power in the Muslim world. Questions like that are just diversions from the cold hard reality that there's a war going on.

[ddmoit]

It makes a difference to me. I wanna know if this is one of those "only good injun is a dead injun" situations.

[tilerite]

You, like the rest of the sheeple conditioned to believe that the government always acts in the best interest of the people, will probably think so, but as you rest easily in that believe at night, give thanks for the few true patriots out there fighting for your rights even though you think you don't need them because you always obey the law. Remember that when it is your particular "group's" turn in the barrel-- "you didn't have to worry about that"


I see you've been studying at the "far left school of word twisting". You're a good study. Its funny when people like yourself, extremists, rigid and absolute in their beliefs, divert from the subject to assume and accuse the other person of being what you want that person to be, rather than engage in constructive and objective debate that focuses soley on the topic at hand.
I hate to chop down your theory but believe it or not, I have more issues with our government that could be written about in one thread. Getting back to the original topic, and your claim that our government is eroding the constitution and that we are becoming a fascist state, you are all talk with no factual backup. Bunch of bs.
Get off the kool aid, man. We are a nation with a ton of problems but I hardly think you need to worry about the thought police taking you away in the middle of the night. Thats just unfounded paranoia and as far from reality as it gets.

[Saldibs]

Sorry, Sal, but even the Muslim "extremist" don't have anything against the American way of life, or our "freedom" If that were the case, there would be an awful lot of other countries in their bomb sites too. Besides, how would one determine that the muslim store keeper down the street is an extremist or not just by looking, eh?

We are not the only nation that have been affected by terrorism, did you chose to forget about Spain and England and more.

[dl]

ever hear of the Reformation, Don? Christianity had one. Islam has not. You're going to have to do better than quoting the Old Testament.

So the Reformation repealed the OT? I always thought the Reformation was a revolt against the corruption of the Catholic Church and the scams they had going on, selling indulgences, etc. I realize that the NT is much more peaceful than the OT and some folks talk about it "abrogating" the OT, but I was never taught this when raised as a fundamentalist. I suppose this means the ten commandments don't apply anymore either, or did the reformation just abrogate the nasty stuff, killing, slaying, stoning the adulterer to death etc?

Art, have you ever read the Koran? It is basically just a rephrasing of the Bible with many similar passages, many of the same prophets, etc. Christianity AND Islam are historically and scripturally by far the two most violent religions on earth. This is in stark contrast to eastern religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism which preach and practice compassion, pacifism, and non-violence.

In addition, Christianity and Isam both teach exclusivity (non-believers are infidels worthy of death) while eastern religions are non-exclusive simply claiming that they are one path and other valid paths exist.

I'm not saying that there's nothing to fear of Islamic extremists currently, but historically Christians have just as much if not more blood on their hands.

- DL

[jvcstone]

Getting back to the original topic, and your claim that our government is eroding the constitution and that we are becoming a fascist state, you are all talk with no factual backup. Bunch of bs.
Get off the kool aid, man. We are a nation with a ton of problems but I hardly think you need to worry about the thought police taking you away in the middle of the night. Thats just unfounded paranoia and as far from reality as it gets.

Obviously then, you choose to not read the suggested legislation but base your criticism of my post on what--Faith??? in Government??? Contempt prior to investigation will keep one forever in ignorance, to paraphrase Herbert Spencer. I hardly think that I need to worry much, although a public statement such as those I've made here would qualify me for those "thought police" visiting in the night if the Bill known as HR1955 manages to pass the senate. My concern is for my children and grand children's children, and the future our apathy and inaction against a real and present danger will leave to them. Why worry about an imaginary danger of islamofascist (whatever that might be) destroying our way of life when our government is steadily going about the job. As a very smart possum once said--we have met the enemy and it is us.

JVC

[jvcstone]

We are not the only nation that have been affected by terrorism, did you chose to forget about Spain and England and more.

No, I did not choose to forget England or Spain. Nor did I choose to forget Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, The netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and all those other "freedom loving" countries in Europe that have not been on the receiving end of AlQeada's wrath. Interesting that the terrorism is directed against the few countries that have joined in our aggression. In fact, England has been messing with the Arabian population far longer than we have. I might just note that both England and Spain have been the recipients of far more terrorism from Christian organizations than any Muslim group.

JVC

[sandbagger]

It is basically just a rephrasing of the Bible with many similar passages, good - then it ought to be very easy for you to find those Biblical references to jihad I asked for earlier. (there are over a hundred in the Quran)

it was Muhammad who said, "convert to Islam and be safe" shortly before Muslims began their onslaught of the Christian regions of the Middle East when they refused to convert. Jesus never said anything remotely similar. Christianity doesn't force conversion, and you'll be hard pressed to find a Christian father who kills his daughter for the way she dresses.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071211175557.p3d3kaah&show_article=1

You can play this game of moral equivalency all you want - it won't change the reality that we are at war with a radical cult religion that glorifies death.

[Saldibs]

Nor did I choose to forget Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, The netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and all those other "freedom loving" countries in Europe
Oh yes these power houses that have served the cause of freedom and democracy around the world. They remain safe as long as those countries that do choose to fight the cause are around.

[jvcstone]

In addition, Christianity and Isam both teach exclusivity (non-believers are infidels worthy of death)

Might as well go ahead and mention once again that the two religions along with the Jews trace their roots back to the same patriarch, and if I recall correctly there was bad blood between his two sons. One could claim that all of this mess in the Mid East (which by the way has been ongoing for thousands of years) is nothing more than a bad case of sibling rivalry. By the way, Jesus is a part of the Islamic religion also--one of their prophets.

JVC

[dl]

They remain safe as long as those countries that do choose to fight the cause are around.

When the war was just and the threat was real, many countries chose to participate: Argentina, Australia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belgium, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, France, Greece, Italy, Kuwait, Morocco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Niger, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, South Korea, Spain, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom and the United States of America.

But this time most of them were smart enough to see through the Bush administration's BS and fabrications for the purpose of politics and war profiteering. Eventually most Americans saw thru the deception also with the exception of some of the religious right which bought the "God told me" and holy war crap hook line and sinker.

- DL

[Saldibs]

Terrorism is a real threat, people die because of it, some one must fight the fight or we will all be overrun by those to who wish to do us harm. If not the United States, then who is to fight. Switzerland?

[Jaz]

This thread reminds me of an editorial recording that became a radio hit is the mid-70's. The editorial was first written by Canadian Gordon Sinclair of Toronto. The "hit" recording was done by Byron Macgregor, a radio newsman for CKLW 800 of Windsor Ontario, just across the river from Detroit.

Although the events have changed from those of the '70's, the general theme is still the same.

PLEASE, take a few minutes to listen to this inspirational recording and see if you don't agree with me. :usflag:

Byron Macgregor died in 1995, way before his time. Ironically I just realized that we share the same birthday. March 3, 1948.

Please go to You Tube and listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoIUnthDgwM

Jaz.........Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays! :yipee:

[Davy]

Yeah, I've heard that before, Jaz. :)

I wasn't trying to start a big stink when I started this thread. I just thought it was refreshing to see an American say "the heck with everyone else" for a change. :)

[tilerite]

Obviously then, you choose to not read the suggested legislation but base your criticism of my post on what--Faith??? in Government???

If I didn't read it, I would be just as bad as those who I accuse of being unobjective secularists. Of course I'll read it. As for your post, I'm only critical because your post was more about presumptions and paranoia than it was about fact. Stick with cold hard facts and you might find me in agreement with some of what you say. No need to sensationalize to make your point.

[MudMaker]

Stephano,

If we need oil and someone's gonna take it away I say go take the shit back and blow them to bits...fair and square. But don't pansey ass around with our troops. They are for fighting...not policing. Put a curfew on the damn towns night and day, if they don't like it shoot'em. Japan never did this car bombing shit.
I like where you're goin here but, can you imagine what the Liberals would say about it if President Bush would allow the Military do this??

[KenH83]

Oh yah, and what is it that needs to be done..

[MudMaker]

Hey Stephano ole boy - You're preachin to the choir... I'm with you with respect to $h#t or get off the pot - don't hold back our military..
The Liberals I speak of here are the Media and Democrats in Congress.. They'd have a field day... :yeah:

[river-wear]

Forget what the liberals would say. Don't you think it would be far worse what the whole rest of the world would say? Bush has already done a fine job isolating us from many other nations. :(

Do you really think we should just go bomb the heck out of their country and take their oil? Just like that, 'cause we want it? That would be just as bad as losing our Bill of Rights.

That's far different from "s**t or get off the pot" - which, incidentally, I agree with.

[sandbagger]

Bush has already done a fine job isolating us from many other nations. How about naming names, Michele? Sorry to put you on the spot, but I can't "forget what liberals would say" when you drop a favorite line from the liberal playbook. :shake:

I don't suppose you caught any of Sarkozy's speech to our own Congress when he visited the US recently? Too bad our own politicians have forgotten how to make speeches like that.

[river-wear]

Hmm, I never thought I was a liberal. Food for thought.

As for your question, I have been following Sarkozy for the last year or so, and was (pleasantly) surprised when he was elected. Tony Blair lost his job over his unwavering support of our President's policies. Spain has withdrawn their troops. Support accross Europe has fallen significantly in the last couple of years. A couple dozen other countries have withdrawn. The media and their influence of popular opinion in those countries is actually much worse than the political realities.

Art, do you really think other countries would be cheering us on if we went over there and nuked everyone so we could have the oil? I thought that was the point Stephano was making.

[river-wear]

I agree with you on that, Stephano! What the heck ARE we REALLY doing there? D'you think they'll know when they're "done?"

(Hate to admit it, but I supported Bush 3-4 years ago...) :(

[MudMaker]

Hmm, I never thought I was a liberal. Food for thought.
You're only half Liberal Michelle.. The Gov't spending half is Conservative.. :stick:

Lets look at Spain.. Zapatero has so far legalized same-sex marriages and implemented program of amnesty for undocumented immigrants.
Hell, Spain's President is a freekin Socialist..
He is currently isolating Spain from us.
We don't want Socialism over here - or do we??
Do we want to give amnesty to all illegals??
Do we want to legalize gay marriage??
Eventhough Bush has not made everyone happy, do we want a Democrat in the White House continuing the implementation of Socialist agendas??

[river-wear]

Hell, most of Europe is socialist if you ask me. :suspect:

I used to laugh at the political mailings I got from the local "council" when I was living in the UK.

[MudMaker]

This is true Michelle.. Just wanted to highlite Spain..
I was there in the 80's.. Had a blast.. El Puerta de SantaMaria, Cadiz.. Jerez, Great people great location.. They liked Americans there... :)

Jerez.. They maka de reel guud Sherry.... :loaded:

[sandbagger]

Hell, most of Europe is socialist if you ask me. OK - do ya suppose that has any impact on how they view a capitalist country that is kicking their collective buts economically? And don't look now, but both France and Germany are trying to roll back some of that socialism - like changing the work rules that kill productivity and global competitiveness. Tony Blair resigned as PM after holding the office for 10 yrs. That's #2 behind the 11+ years of Thatcher, and longer than we allow our own presidents to hold office.

And let us not ignore Eastern Europe where US support is much stronger than in the West. Nothing like 40 yrs of Communism to help you get your priorities straight. :yeah: The media and their influence of popular opinion in those countries is actually much worse than the political realities.great point and glad you brought it up. Fortunately these folks are slowly losing influence. Art, do you really think other countries would be cheering us on if we went over there and nuked everyone so we could have the oil?did I say anything remotely resembling that? :scratch:

[river-wear]

True that they are starting to reform some of the socialist policies in Europe, but Tony Blair was under a lot of pressure to resign. His popularity was plummeting because of Iraq and I'm sure the Labour Party did not want to jeopardize their majority. They needed to make some adjustments to maintain power.

And let us not ignore Eastern Europe where US support is much stronger than in the West. Nothing like 40 yrs of Communism to help you get your priorities straight.

That's for sure - in Poland they seem to love us. The most surprising thing I saw there was "Ronald Reagan Way" through the center of Nowa Huta (next to Krakow) - a planned community that was a "gift" from Stalin. The street had been named after Lenin during Soviet times.

(Art, my question about grabbing for oil came out of your response to my statement that the liberal's response to our bombing the heck out of Iraq would be secondary to what the rest of the world would say. I must have misunderstood.)

[flatfloor]

Dan saidSorry folks, I don't hear patriotism, I hear nationalism

Dan I hope you don't get overrun while your quibbling over words and economic policy. :blah:

[TravisFling]

I'm a big nerd (double major in Econ and finance) and this is a great article pertaining to all this mess... We're giving up a substantial amount of our liberties for the "illusion/allusion" of security. Are we really any safer today, now that we have to take our shoes off at the airport, than we were before 9/11? No. We aren't. The whole point of a terrorist is to try to circumvent the billions and billions of dollars we spend to keep us "safe". A burglar will study a new safe to figure out how to crack it, until they figure it out. That's the whole point. You can't make an impenatrable safe, because you have to be able to get to your trowels, which means someone else can too. We're just out the billions of dollars, which could have paid for free healthcare for EVERYONE for how many years? (or whatever you would have liked out of the government... Newly paved roads, less taxes to pay, hospitals, liberry's, new trowels, an anti-mastic ad campaign...)

http://www.schneier.com/essay-155.html

This is a long read, but it's very interesting material, and will probably put a lot of this into perspective.

[ddmoit]

Hi Travis.

An Econ major? I sometimes wish I had done that. Who's your favorite economist?

[TravisFling]

hahaha... Probably Wallis.. The late Dr. Wallis was the grandfather of one of my best friends and went to UChicago with Freidman. He was a great man, and the one who got me interested in Econ. He was also an advisor to President Reagan and someone I consider pretty intelligent. It's amazing when you look at some of the things we do emotionally and what the true value of that action is. That article is awesome, and really puts things into perspective. I got as mad as anyone else when 9/11 happened, but really, unfortunately, not much has changed... Sad, really. And particularly expensive, in this case... How about you? You got a fav? It's funny, I work for a bank and I've gone 8/8 against our economic forecasting consultants.. If they've predicted the correct shift, I've gotten the spread more accurate... it's becoming this big ongoing joke, but I keep winning free lunches out of it, so that's nice...

[ddmoit]

Well, as a fan of the Austrian school of economic thought, Ludwig von Mises is the obvious choice. But, I'd hate to leave out Henry Hazlitt, F. A. Hayek, Murray Rothbard, or Frederic Bastiat.

[sandbagger]

That article is awesome, and really puts things into perspective. No, it was boring. It was filled with academic pop psychology drivel, and most importantly - presented absolutely no hint of any solutions! (feel free to correct me if they were buried in there - I actually did try to read it.) :stick:

sorry, but I have little patience for this kind of stuff. As an engineer and sometimes project manager I am well aware of the concept of "risk management." But unlike these academic types, my type has to convert that awareness into solutions.

an enemy has been waging war on the US and its cultural allies for many years (about 1400, if you want to be picky) which culminated in a military strike on a civilian site on US soil. More deaths than Pearl Harbor - a military site. Outside Iraq, I do believe the 6-yr period without attack on a US asset is the longest such period in many decades. Pretty good risk management, IMHO. :nod:

[tilerite]

What Art said!

[MudMaker]

What Art n Rick said....
I hafta admit... I hated economics and sometimes it shows.. :rolleyes:

[TravisFling]

Good point about the article. There's not much there as far as what to do, but I think the point was more a discussion of perceptions. Most economists love to talk about the why, and all come to a conclusion of why, and then differ greatly on the "what" part.

I do think it's a little odd that you would say except for Iraq, when that's been the source of some pretty major casualties, if I'm not mistaken... More than 9/11? I'm pretty sure, but I could certainly be wrong. Also, don't get me wrong, I own a .308 and an M4 Carbine... I just think that a lot of the things they're doing and spending money on aren't doing us any good, and I really don't like a lot of the encroachment onto our liberties that they've made to do so... Over 90% of the arrests they've made coming out of the Patriot Act have been to domestic and even local pot dealers. Come on... I just think they'll rarely use these provisions for terrorists. I don't know... I'm no expert on national security, I just simply don't feel any safer now than I did before 9/11, now that I have to take my shoes off at the airport and I can't take my lighter with me. I was up in the Thousand Islands this summer visiting my buddies who are Coastie's up there and some friends at Fort Drum. When took the boat out and I noticed that when you cross the border there they have a SELF check-in for customs. I don't know the solution, but I do know that we have the allusion/illusion of safety with all this that's going on.

[tilerite]

Hey Travis
I do my best to stay away from the airports too. Nothing more soul satisfying than loading up the truck and headin out to see America. Its the only way to travel.

[Shooter]

No, it was boring. It was filled with academic pop psychology drivel, and most importantly - presented absolutely no hint of any solutions! (feel free to correct me if they were buried in there - I actually did try to read it.)

sorry, but I have little patience for this kind of stuff. As an engineer and sometimes project manager I am well aware of the concept of "risk management." But unlike these academic types, my type has to convert that awareness into solutions.

an enemy has been waging war on the US and its cultural allies for many years (about 1400, if you want to be picky) which culminated in a military strike on a civilian site on US soil. More deaths than Pearl Harbor - a military site. Outside Iraq, I do believe the 6-yr period without attack on a US asset is the longest such period in many decades. Pretty good risk management, IMHO. Agreed.

I also read this article and read many like it. It is a bunch of drivel from people who don't live and breath this stuff. It is a way for themselves in their little bubble of a world so that they may seem smart, grab ass and pat each other on the backs for coming up with pages of seemingly intelligent crap. Thankfully there are those who put themselves on the line to provide them with that secure bubble of theirs.

Terrorists want us to feel insecure, they want to interrupt our sense of security to instill fear and upset our status quo. No doubt from an economic standpoint arguably they are highly successful, however more importantly the cost of such security is a necessity to give the general public a sense or feeling of security so that we can continue to thrive as a free society. We are treading in new uncharted waters.

While not every program is perfect, we are a much more secure society post 911 than pre 911. However we cannot let our guard down and that is what they want and are waiting for. Believe me, the evil that was responsible for 911 is still ever present but Americans too quickly forget and become complacent. They are out there planning and training both here and abroad. They are here amongst us. They will lie in wait as long as it takes, waiting for the fruit to be ripe for the picking. There are those who work hard in attempts to allow us to sleep comfortably in our beds at night. If the public truly understood what was transpiring around them both here and abroad, the terrorists would be succeeding.

I live this and don't just preach it from behind a desk with a pen and paper. Of course the appropriate thinkers are necessary and they are doing their jobs, but they too are tasked with not only identifying the problems but also comming up with solutions for the people right people who's job it is to take care of the problems. This is not something that the day to day public sees or hears about. That is the goal, to provide a semblance of normality so we can continue on and do what we do best. I will be the first to say that there are many things that are far from perfect but without a doubt this is still and will always be the greatest country on the planet!