This is Justice?

[kate42]

Victim of rape gets sent to jail.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSL2057524920071120?pageNumber=2&sp=true

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[river-wear]

I saw that yesterday. Pretty sick. :sick:

It was all her fault because she was with an unrelated male. And apparently men can't control themselves. :stirpot:

It's heartening to see that the U.S. finally got a little courage and criticized the move. Even though it was weak:

A State Department spokesman told reporters on Monday that "most (people) would find this relatively astonishing that something like this happens".

And to think they increased the sentence, accusing her of trying to use the media to plead her case. Don't these idiots realize she's already been punished far worse (with the original crime)? Can't they consider what they would do if it was their wife or daughter? (Guess not, since she's a member of the Shia minority and they are Sunni.) Or maybe they figure she's getting off light because they didn't give her the death penalty for going somewhere with a man.

[HS345]

Ahhh, the religion of peace. Ain't it grand?

[sdaniels7114]

All the more reason for us to re-double our efforts to make coal at least as cheap and clean a fuel that crude oil is. I so desperately want America to be done with that entire region. JFK once said something about us all breathing the same air and wanting what's best for our children... It was a crock!! Those people are just too different. Whatever you think of Al Qaeda's motivation for attacking us, the primary reason they specified was the USA stationing defensive troops in the country that is permitting this abomination. Our defense of the sick, sick nation that's doing this is likely the cause of everything that's happened in the world since 9-11.

[ddmoit]

Well, I didn't think that this would end up being a very controversial thread because everyone in the forum can agree that the woman in question has suffered a series of injustices.

Then someone implicates an entire religion on the basis of the actions of a few of its members (unless I misunderstood you, Greg.) Christianity (I count myself among its members) would not fare so well under the same scrutiny.

Steve, from an economic standpoint, it is not necessary for buyers and sellers to like one another. History has shown that commerce occurs despite the relationships of buyers and sellers. It is completely unnecessary for the US to maintain a military presence in the Middle East. No matter how much they hate us (or for what reasons), they will sell their oil to the highest bidder.

[flatfloor]

Can't they consider what they would do if it was their wife or daughter?

That my friends, is a prime example of why we are in the mess we are in with these people. We keep attributing our values and customs to them.
They would not care who's daughter it was even if she their own they would have done the same horrible thing.

[ddmoit]

They would not care who's daughter it was even if she their own they would have done the same horrible thing.Some cultures practice what they call honor killing - the killing of a family member - usually a female - who has brought dishonor to the family. Apparently, being raped is one of the things that dishonors a family.

[Scooter]

The crime was that she was not supposed to be in a car with a man other than her father or husband. That is their culture. The fact that our culture allows, permits, indeed encourages a 16 year old girl to have sex with grown man without any repercussions, is equally crazy, in my belief.

[flatfloor]

:goodpost: Scooter

[ceramictec]

hmmmmmm :scratch:

[HS345]

Then someone implicates an entire religion on the basis of the actions of a few of its members (unless I misunderstood you, Greg.) Christianity (I count myself among its members) would not fare so well under the same scrutiny.
Dan, It all depends on what your definition of the word "few" is. The kingdom of Saudi Arabia could hardly be considered a few.

Maybe your "few" is based on percentages. What percentage of Muslims are of the so called "radical" variety. With one billion plus muslims on the planet, even one percent would be more than a few. How about one tenth of one percent?

I didn't necessarilly mean to implicate an entire religion. But can you point out to me the more peaceful parts of the Koran? Or Queran, if you prefer. Maybe the part about the tree that tells the Muslim that there is a Jew hiding behind it, come kill it.

Where are the more moderate Muslims? You know, the ones railing against 9-11. Sure, there are some, but they are few and far between.

So please accept my apologies for being realistic. I know that is not the pc thing to do.

Oh yeah, when was the last time a Christian strapped a bomb to himself and went into a pizza parlor? Perhaps you could refresh my memory.

The crime was that she was not supposed to be in a car with a man other than her father or husband. That is their culture. The fact that our culture allows, permits, indeed encourages a 16 year old girl to have sex with grown man without any repercussions, is equally crazy, in my belief.
Maybe your culture promotes that. Mine doesn't. And last time I checked, we didn't send the 16 year old girl to prison. Equally crazy? I think not.

[river-wear]

Dan, you're right about this part:
No matter how much they hate us (or for what reasons), they will sell their oil to the highest bidder.

But they can really mess around with us too. Like what happened with the oil embargo in the 70s. If the rest of the world gives them "enough" (whatever that may be) for the oil, they can cripple our economy. Or they can scale back on their gold-plated jet airplanes (yes, I'm making this one up) and just do without the money for awhile as our nation squirms. A LOT of that money goes to very few people over there anyway, right?

[Scooter]

Kobe Bryant had sex with an underage girl. Had to marry her to avoid prosecution.

If you're my age, Jerry Lee Lewis had similar sex with an underage girl.

Neither one was punished.

There are other examples, but Brittany, Lidsey, and Shakira shaking their tail feathers and naked belly buttons would be fairly shocking in Arab cultures.

So if you are American, then your culture permits this. Or you can legislate against it.

The fact is that Arab culture is far more conservative than ours. I'm gonna post a picture of a French woman I saw during a recent trip in Syria that caused quite a stir. Now, this would have been fine in your home town, and you probably would have liked it, but the Arabs were quite pissed off. I think you just don't understand Arab culture and women. It is much different than ours and we ain't a gonna change it.

Picture follows. Bear in mind that I am a dirty old man and I photographed this because, well, because, well, ....I'm a dirty old man.

[HS345]

So because their warped "culture" is different than yours, that makes it okay to punish rape victims?

[Scooter]

Repeat, maybe you didn't get this the first time around:

She was punished for being in a car with someone who was not her husband and not her father. Whether she was a rape victim was irrelevant.

All I can anologize to is this: A woman commits a bank robbery and along the way is raped by one of her perps. Do we let her off because she committed a crime? No. She committed a crime. Bank robbery is a crime here. Being with someone alone in a car who is neither your father nor your husband is a crime there. Get it? Its their country. They can make whatever laws they want.

Let me turn around your question, so you get it-- So because our warped "culture" is different than theirs, that makes it okay to allow Brittany to practically go naked and Paris to make sex tapes?

Short answer, in case you are not a lawyer: Yes. What might be wierd, perverted and sick in the USA is illegal in Arab countries. Get It?

This is a local law area, and people treat women differently in different cultures. I've now been to the Middle East twice, once in 1972 and once last month. They have a different attitute toward women, sex, dress, and activities. To control behavor they criminalize stuff which we consider normal. So the French lady in an archilogical site is just fine for us; it is close to criminal for them. They are a soverign nation. If you don't like it, don't live there. And if you go there, and your wife looks like that French lady (I am jealous if that is the case), then don't let her dress like that.

The whole world does not have the same cultures or laws that the USA does. Get it?

[HS345]

You can analogize all you want. I will stand by my statement that thier culture is warped. Not because I say it is. It is warped as evidenced by their actions.

Basic human rights are not negated just because some religious fanatics write some stupid opprressive laws. They are GOD given. And every human being is entitled to them. I'll never understand why you lefties think that these oppressive dictatorships have some sort of moral equivalence with the USA. They do not.

Freedom beats oppression, hands down, every time.

Don't worry, I have no intention of visiting the Middle East anytime soon. It is a shame too, I would love to see The Pyramids at Giza. Not to mention The Holy Land.

And don't be jealous of my wife. :D

[Scooter]

It must be nice to believe that your country has all the answers and can, or should, impose its culture of pornography, loose morals, Christianity, pork, half naked women with nipples showing, free flowing alcohol, drugs, and guns on the rest of of the world.

I believe your fear of travel to see other cultures reinforces your parochial narrow minded view of the world that the rest of the world should be just like NE Ohio.

[dl]

> Basic human rights are not negated just because some religious fanatics write some stupid opprressive laws.

The US has had it share of stupid oppressive laws written by religious fanatics too, but we straightened that out ourselves (or at least most of them), not some foreign nation imposing it on us.

- DL

[river-wear]

This kind of moral relativism makes me ill. I can totally understand allowing other cultures to have their traditions, laws and social mores. But this case is completely ridiculous.

Do any of you remember Amina Lawal, the woman in Nigeria who became pregnant out of wedlock? She was sentenced to death by stoning for having sex. That's okay with you because that's their law and their culture? :mad:

Some things are just plain wrong. Doesn't matter where you are. There really ARE some basic human rights.

[sdaniels7114]

Some things are just plain wrong. Doesn't matter where you are. There really ARE some basic human rights.

Absolutely, you can't equate this to putting Mayonnaise on French Fries or sticking with the British Standard system of weights and measures even though the Brits themselves abandoned it.

What they're doing to that woman is just wrong. Natural Law existed long before the first person thought of it in the same way E=MC^2 existed long before Einstein's birth.

[HS345]

It must be nice to believe that your country has all the answers
Yes, it is.
and can, or should, impose its culture of pornography, loose morals, Christianity, pork, half naked women with nipples showing, free flowing alcohol, drugs, and guns on the rest of of the world.
Aside from Christianity, pork, and guns, the rest of those "culture" items are from your side of the isle. Freedom and liberty are never an imposition.

I believe your fear of travel to see other cultures reinforces your parochial narrow minded view of the world that the rest of the world should be just like NE Ohio.
Actually, I'm originally from Cullyfornya (that's the best Arnold I can muster on a keyboard). And, I no longer practice Catholocism. :yeah:

Why is it you'll criticize MY narrow mindedness, while you laud brutal dictators? Why do you hate The United States of America so much?

[Scooter]

I don't hate the USA. I love it. Stop trying to parrot Sean Hennity, guy.

I've been to probably 50 foreign countries Rick. Probably 10 in the Middle and Far East will in the service and after I got out. Viet Nam, Thailand, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, Eygpt, Israel and Lebanon.

In the 80's I did Central and South America twice, so pretty much every country South of Texas.

In the 90's, I did India, Pakistan, and Tibet. And one trip to Turkey, as well as a couple trips to all of Europe.

And this year did Eqypt, Jordan and Syria. And I would love to go to Iran next year if we can swing it.

I find discovery new and different cultures to be fascinating.

Just a few examples:

In Indonesia, you don't chew gum or litter. If you do so, in front of the police, you will likely be arrested. They don't get chewing gum and hate litter. In our Country, I see people throwing cigarret buts out the windown all day long. Does that mean our Country is better or Indonesia is better--no, it means they are different. They have different cultures, different histories, and different morals and habits. They were devleoping these habits before the USA was born.

In Japan, you don't sneeze. Now thats hard for me, because I'm a big guy, and I can let out a whopping sneeze with all sorts of stuff spewing out or glommed onto my fingers. You won't get arrested, but you will get stares of disapprovement. One covers up and uses paper tissue (not hankies) and you throw them away and immediately wash your hands and you don't shake hands. They are incredibly sanitary there. In New York, I routinely see people put a finger to their one side of their nose and discharge flem onto the floor of a subway station, and no one bats an eye. So thats better? Of course nowt, its a cultural difference, Rick.

Finally, in Arab countries, you will not find strip clubs, pork (even in Chinese restaurants), or liquor (except in high end hotels, and only discreetly), nor any evidence of drug use. Take drugs and you are going to jail big time in Jordan. Here, and I suspect even in Ohio, you can possess small amounts of pot, and get a friggin traffic ticket. Is our way the only right way? No, of course not.

I think you are confusing morals, customs, laws, habits and culture with politcs.

The fact that a country does not have a democracy is separate and apart from its culture. A dictatorship can be perfectly benign--examples include Jordan, Saudia Arabia, China, Egypt, and Russia.

Conversely, a democratically elected government does not mean they must have identical values to ours. The Palestinians in Gaza whoelected Hammas could be considered evil--but they are a democracy. You might theoretically classify Russia as a democracy now, and Putin is again raising fears here.

I'm all in favor of democracies but one thing I have learned in my travels is that they are not for every nation. Not every nation has a citizenry which is intellectually developed for democracies. In the Middle East, loyalties are first to the family, then to the tribe, and waaaaay last is the nation. Remember, all national borders were artificially drawn by England and they were a nomadic people, many of which still live in goatskin tents.

I do understand that if the world is viewed from the perspective of a hick town in NE Ohio and you've not seen the cultures of which you complain, you might lack the knowledge to form a complete opinion. My advice is to get out more and see the World, Rick. I think it would change your opinions.

[flatfloor]

Scooter, Rick left N'East Ohio, however Greg still lives there. :)

[MudMaker]

Hey Scooter...
I'm in SW Ohio.. Am I a hick too? :D
Just remember Ohio will control who gets to the Oval Office... :stick:

[HS345]

That makes you more of a hick than me Frank. You're much closer to Kentucky.

[dl]

> Just remember Ohio will control who gets to the Oval Office...

Looks like Obama then?

Whoops, that's Iowa where Obama now leads.

- DL

[Scooter]

I didn't say you were a hick, only that you were from a hick city. By the way, I grew up in the Midwest, a hick city like yours, and probably smaller. It was so small that both of the City Limits signs were on the same post. :rofl:

[kate42]

:wave: http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/pilgrims2.gif (http://www.millan.net)

There is a town west of me named Hicksville. There is a business named Hicks Nursery. I wonder what all of this makes the town residents. :scratch: :D

[HS345]

I don't even live in a city. I'm in a township. You assume too much Scooter, I have traveled rather extensively.

[river-wear]

Don't sweat it Greg. When Scooter gets his hackles up, he tells the person who bugged him they're from a hick town. :)

Scooter - you made some very good examples. I don't think a lot of people would disagree that these countries have every right to hold the views they do. (In a few cases, I wish the US would follow suit. Especially the one about people dumping their ashtrays in the street!) But when it crosses over to oppressing half their population, it's a whole other story.

[John Corley]

I am definitely a hick

born in Clarksdale Mississippi, in October--- first white baby of the year

Grew up in Dogpatch Arkansas :moon:

[kate42]

John :wave: http://www.millan.net/minimations/toolminis/turkydance2.gif (http://www.millan.net)

:lol2: :lol2: :rofl: :rofl:

[MudMaker]

That makes you more of a hick than me Frank
Dang.... and I went to school in Virginia too... Guuuuulllllllllleeee.. :fish1:

[Jeremy]

Michelle wrote:
"Scooter - you made some very good examples. I don't think a lot of people would disagree that these countries have every right to hold the views they do. (In a few cases, I wish the US would follow suit. Especially the one about people dumping their ashtrays in the street!) But when it crosses over to oppressing half their population, it's a whole other story."


Why would "womens rights", in another country, concern you? Should we force "equality" upon every country in the world, giving them such gems as "affirmative action"??? It hasnt worked here, and its not going to work anywhere else EITHER.

Maybe we should actually take a few notes from some of these cultures, and our own society might revert back to a time when actions were something you were judged upon. They actually expect their children to obey rules??? And they punish them if they dont??? WOW, the audacity of some people!!! I wonder if this type of parenting has resulted in these folks not having as many Britney Spears characters as we have here?

[river-wear]

You can travel to just about any country without fear.

How would you feel if you "dared" to visit a country and would be punished if you drove a car? Visited with a member of the opposite sex who wasn't a relative? Would be thought of more as property than a human being?

Cool, eh? :wtf:

While we're at it, why give a %!)#@ about the Katrina victims, the people who lost their homes to fire in SoCal, the starving children in Africa, the lack of basic vaccinations in third world countries, etc? Heck, let's bring back slavery too. That happens to someone ELSE so...

Jeremy - you're confusing raising children to have ethics & morals with the basic right a person has to live free of fear. (And I don't mean a kid's freedom from fear of discipline.)

[Scooter]

When my wife and I traveled to Arab countries, she respects their views and in some cases law and wears a head scarf, especially in Mosques and whenever she gets stared at. Its unnecessary in tourist areas.

And if you are woman traveling alone in Arab countries, while it is possible, I think you should consider a brother, husband, or tour guide. And, by the way, I would recommend the same thing in parts of the in many parts of S.America (Rio) and USA--South Central LA and parts of NY come to mind. Its just common sense. My wife got mugged and accosted in Rio--I was about 15 feet behind her and they didn't realize that she was accompanyied. Now, she is 5-9 and 160 pounds and most of it muscle--she kicked shit out of the little kids! But you just have to travel smart and respectful.

The bottom line for me is that we have a great culture here--I love naked women, drugs and booze. I just don't think our whole culture is transportable to other countries, and certainly we shouldn't foist it on them. And Michele, I am not advocating we change our culture to something else--the point of the post was that they must change to our cultures and laws.

Unlike the scene in "Full Metal Jacket", where the General said "inside every gook there is an American wanting to come out", I find that most people we visit like their country and their culture.

And bear in mind about the facts of the incident, the rape wouldn't have happened if the woman was with her husband or relative--the law is protective in that sense.

[flatfloor]

Jeremy - you're confusing raising children to have ethics & morals with the basic right a person has to live free of fear

Michele, once again you impose our values on another country's culture. Do you realize they consider us to be morally bankrupt?

[kate42]

you impose our values on another country's culture.
I don’t care if it’s their culture. It’s wrong. Suppose a particular culture punished the rapist by cutting off the rapists offending organ? I bet some of you gentlemen would be ready to change that culture real quick.

Do you realize they consider us to be morally bankrupt?
I’d rather be morally bankrupt than be part of a culture that punishes rape victims.

And if you are woman traveling alone in Arab countries, while it is possible I think you should consider a brother, husband, or tour guide. And, by the way, I would recommend the same thing in parts of the in many parts of S.America (Rio) and USA--South Central LA and parts of NY come to mind
BTW, parts of LA and NY may not be safe for women, but it’s also not safe for a man.

[flatfloor]

Suppose a particular culture punished the rapist by cutting off the rapists offending organ? I bet some of you gentlemen would be ready to change that culture real quick.

I've got enough to worry about without adding some guy's organ, piano or whatever to the list.


I’d rather be morally bankrupt than be part of a culture that punishes rape victims

I'm not saying they are right. It makes no difference what you and I think, I'm merely trying to point out our cultures have different values.

[Scooter]

Jim is correct, and I could take that premise a bit further by saying we could all put down a list of things that are wrong with our culture and laws. Does that mean the Arabs have the right to come into here and force their changes on us? Heck no, this is our country and we make the laws.

In Turkey, they will imprison a guy with pot for 10 years. Here, we give him a traffic ticket. Here we have strip joints where you can drink and watch naked women cavort to your hearts content. You won't find a one in an Arab Country. Over there, you can't find a prostitute for any amount of money; in Las Vegas, its government licensed. In Egypt, there is no private ownership of guns and here, of course they sell everything but silencers in Wal Mart. There, you can own your home and still get free decent health care. Here, if you want government health care, you have to be picking up cans and bottles.

Do they have the right to claim our way of life, in certain respects, is morally wrong? You betcha. Do we have the same right? Yep? Thankfully, we don't have to live there.

So, in honor of our great American culture and laws, I'm gonna smoke a joint, and hit the strip joint for some viewing pleasure and cocktails. Maybe hit a "Ho" on my way back home after a stop at the gun range. Ain't America great?

[sandbagger]

Do they have the right to claim our way of life, in certain respects, is morally wrong? You betcha. Do they also have the right to declare war on our way of life? That's precisely what they've done, you know. :nod:

[flatfloor]

Nope, and in the first paragraph of his last post Scooter said:

Does that mean the Arabs have the right to come into here and force their changes on us? Heck no, this is our country and we make the laws.

[Scooter]

Actualy Art, and this may be a mere technicality, the only country that has declared "war" on any country in the last decade is us. Its called Iraq. And how's that worked out so far, buddy? :deadhorse

The bottom line to this debate is national soverignty and the right of a country to make laws affecting their own people.

I would assume that there is some BB in Saudia Arabia right now debating a thread on a post called "Justice" and criticizing the United States and some Muslem can't understand how a nation like ours can condone acohol, drug use, prostitution, gambling, and nudity. I guess you would have a problem with that--is it because you, like me, support "alcohol, drug use, prostitution, gambling, and nudity". Maybe you and I have more in common than I thought. :twitch:

[sandbagger]

who said anything about "countries" declaring war? i didn't. :shake:

I do beleive the discussion was more in the context of cultures than countries. That's certainly the context of bin Laden's declaration of war (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/08/19/terror.tape.main/index.html) back in 1998 (originally declared in 1996).

Like it or not, one side certainly believes there's a war.

[river-wear]

Guys, I'm not advocating pushing our culture on any country. (I did admit that adopting a few things would be okay with me - that was my point about Scooter's post.)

I'm saying that regardless of "culture" some things are morally wrong. You guys don't seem to give a whit about the plight of women elsewhere, so how about children? I suppose this is just fine and we shouldn't interfere. (Just one example out of hundreds.)

Facing a military staffing crisis, the Burmese government is forcibly recruiting many children, some as young as age 10, into its armed forces. Burmese military recruiters target children in order to meet unrelenting demands for new recruits due to continued army expansion, high desertion rates and a lack of willing volunteers.

Let me be clear, I'm not necessarily saying our GOVERNMENT should intervene. Private groups can probably be just as effective and keep politics out of it.

[sandbagger]

You guys don't seem to give a whit about the plight of women elsewhere, I certainly hope you didn't read that into any of my posts. :shake:

that's just one on a long list of reasons why I strongly support taking the fight to these barbarians before they bring it to us.

[HS345]

:x:

Sharia may "strike" again. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071128/ap_on_re_mi_ea/sudan_british_teacher)

:twitch: :whip:

[HS345]

*UPDATE*
Well, they didn't give her 40 lashes and 6 months in prison. Only 15 days prison and deportation. See story. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071130/ap_on_re_mi_ea/sudan_british_teacher_62)

But wait, there's more.........mobs filled the streets demanding her execution for this heinous crime.

What horrible deed did this infidel perpetrate against islam, you ask?

Why, she allowed her class to name a teddy bear after a young man in her class, whose name happens to be........you guessed it....... Muhammad.

I agree with the Sudanese, this dispicable piece of human trash, who selfishly went to Sudan to teach young people, deserves death. KILL HER, KILL HER, KILL HER!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, I got caught up in the moment. :o

[river-wear]

I saw that this morning too. It makes my point exactly. Different culture or no, those people are freakin' insane. C'mon. Get a grip. Even the muslims in other countries think the prison sentence was over the top, much less agree with the execution idea.

My answer to that...
Mohammed Toilet Paper (http://www.jeremyinc.com/Mohammed_toilet_paper.html)

Yeah, totally un-PC and even a tad too intolerant, but enough is enough.

[ddmoit]

Well, there are definitely a significant number of people who subscribe to a perverted, despicable version of Islamic religion. It would be hard to conclude anything else.

So, what's to be done about it? I can assure you that there are no military solutions to this problem. I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear some others firest.

[HS345]

I can assure you that there are no military solutions to this problem.

Unfortunately Dan, I think you are dead wrong. "MILITANT" islam will not understand anything BUT a military solution.

The Koran itself speaks only of a military solution to either convert, or die. Muhammad himself was a brutal militant.

Where are the hoardes of "moderate" muslims calling for the release of the British teacher?

I am eager to hear what your non-military solutions to the problem are though. Maybe I'm wrong. First time for everything. :D

[ddmoit]

While you're waiting, Greg, I invite you to post your suggestions about a military solution. I hope it looks a lot different than what we're doing in Iraq. I also hope it looks a lot different than the Israeli plan as well. I sure don't envy the citizens of Israel, living under the constant threat of violence and military alert.

[sandbagger]

well, for those of you who think - like Ron Paul - that the conflicts with Islam are a product of 20th Century US foreign policy, I give you this:

"In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar (i.e., Muhammad), the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portions of earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic las, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the Revelation of Jesus , the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE...Between the two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war war is yet flagrant...While merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men." (emphasis in original)
be sure to note the last part about "a war of twelve hundred years has already raged." The author? John Quincy Adams. :stick:

and you think the Islamic hate of America is new? Jefferson and Adams might beg to differ. In 1786 they met in London with the Tripolitan Ambassador to Britain, Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja. They questioned Ambassador Adja as to the source of the unprovoked animus directed at the nascent United States republic. His response (he did not deny it!): … that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.
Bottom line? They hate us for who we are. :devil2:

(It's a little long, but this article on America’s First War on Terror (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={55E5C6C2-B801-4FF3-B59E-F52F591A42AA}) is a worthwhile read. :tup1: )

[Scooter]

Well, I'm convinced. Institute the Draft again, raise a standing Army of about 3 million, and invade and conquer every Islamic country. Or maybe we ought to be the first to use nuclear weapons (again), bomb them all back to the stone age, and have a nuclear winter. Might get rid of global warming as a two-fer.

:clap2:

[Tom Tee]

Bombing them back to the stone age would seem to be a rather slight dislocaton for them IMO.



Correct me if I am wrong but was not the rape victims punishment for being improperly accompanied and additionally for disrespecting the court which was holding up the accompanyment rule?

I did not take it that she was being penalized for being raped. However the rape incident did bring focus on her unauthorized travel arrangements.


Those guys name every crazy w/ that mohamad name, what the heck is wrong w/ naming a docile teddy?

Maybe if the teddy was a monster character in a horror flick who disembowled little Christian kids the teacher would have been exhaulted.

An interesting read is Genesis chapter 16 verses 1 thru 16, first book of Moses. It covers the Biblical perspective of middle eastern strife. Not recent by any means.

Also scooter has made a vivid point in how we in this country are somewhat ego centric in defining everyone else by our standards or lack there of.

Do not travel much but always hear of how our image is portrayed over seas. They view our movies and see it as a way we live. Couplke of decades ago the rest of the world thought we were all cowboys riding the range. Today, when considering the films sent around the world. they must think that most of the US males are humping the Britney/Paris/Jessica dumbos.

They do not come across very well from our perspective however we sure do not come across very well from their perspective either.

tt

[kate42]

Tom :wave:

Thus the name "The Ugly American".

[HS345]

Dan,
Let me preface my statements by saying, I am not a military "strategerist".

If war is to be waged, it needs to be done so in such a manner as to achieve complete, and decisive victory over one's enemy. I know, that sounds so common sensical as to be absurd. But it seems to me that the USA has forgotten how to wage a proper war.

You cannot win a war by painting targets on the backs of our brave men and women fighters, and sending them into an urban/geurilla situation. Youda thunk we shoulda learnt that by now. But noooooo.

IMO, modern warfare should be waged almost entirely from the air, and, when possible, the sea. And should be done in massive, crushing blows. I know that sounds heartless, for that will surely cause a lot of civilian casualties. But, there are ways to minimize collateral damage, and in the long run, lives will be saved. Why do we spend massive amounts of tax dollars on weaponry, if we're not going to use it? :scratch:

Another way to combat Islamic extremism would be to covertly inform the heads of terrorist sponsoring nations to quell this bull**** or we will start destroying ports, and oil infrastructure with tactical nukes, and if and when they don't comply, take a couple facilities out. When UN wants to know why we did it, play :stupid2: . I know this is fantasy land, and this will never happen, and maybe shouldn't happen, but you DID ask. :yeah:

Another less radical possible solution would be to lift our policy against the assassination of heads of foreign states. Again, covertly inform said heads of state to cut the crap, or else. Start with a couple low level dignitaries, and work your way up. All the way to the top if necessary. Worked wonders against Ghadaffi, and we didn't even have to actually kill him. Though it wasn't for lack of trying.

I know all of this sounds brutal, and it is, but it is the only thing these maniacs will understand. You can't negotiate with these barbarians.

Let me also offer one non-military solution. Get off the foreign oil. Drill Alaska, drill the Gulf of Mexico, recover the shale oil in The Rockies. This country has more oil than people realize. (Or want to admit)

[flatfloor]

We won the "war" we are losing the democratization.

[sandbagger]

yes, Jim, I fear you are correct. :nod:

And it appears history is correct - again. Islam is fundamentally incompatible with Democracy, at least anything we would recognize as such. In fact, the distinction between "church" and "state" did not exist in the Arabic language until the terms were imported from Western languages. Sure, there are some who would like to continue the "reformation" of Islam, and I commend them. But the resistance from fundamentalists dwarfs anything seen during the Reformation of Christianity, and I don't see it letting up without a nasty fight. The more I learn about the history of the Middle East, the more frustrated I get with liberals and pacifists who think these people just want to be left alone. 1600 years of history says otherwise. :mad:

[ddmoit]

I've got news for you, Art. We can march out of the Middle East in an orderly fashion on our own terms - as Ron Paul advocates - or we can be forced out by our own bankruptcy.

[sandbagger]

or we can be forced out by our own bankruptcy.now, Dan, if you're going to wave the Constitution at us you need to be consistent. You know very well that the only thing that is going to "bankrupt" this country is the nearly 60% of the Federal budget that is going to what is essentially unConstitutional welfare. The total military expenditures are miniscule by comparison, and whether or not you agree with the amount of spending you can't argue that funding the military is not in the Constitution.

and a little perspective. In 1943-45 military spending was over 37% of the US GDP for each year. In 2005 it was less than 4%. That's up from 3% in 2001, but hardly fuel for bankruptcy. (it averaged about 7.5% during the Cold War.)

But I'll make it simple for you, just tell me how Ron Paul is going to stop a war that Islam has waged against "non-believers" for 1600 years and I'll vote for him. :yeah:

and I've got news for you: "Marching out in an orderly fashion" is NOT the answer - might as well just wave a big white flag. :shake:

[HS345]

But I'll make it simple for you, just tell me how Ron Paul is going to stop a war that Islam has waged against "non-believers" for 1600 years and I'll vote for him.
I'll second that.

Dan, I am still eager to hear your non-military solutions to the problem of Islamic extremism. :shades:

[Scooter]

I don't see the problem having a military solution. Not every problem has a military solution, Greg.

The problem is ultimately a political solution. Let the Arab nations deal with their whacky citizens, while we do things suggested by the 9-11 Commission, most of which have not gotten implemented like:

--A Computer system to track Visas. Did you know once a Visa is issued, we don't know that its expired or where to find the guy? Bush dropped the idea.

--National form of Picture ID for citizens, with a computer system to track who we are.

--100% Border Security. Every car, boat, and truck gets searched and its occuupants run through a computer.

--100% Package and Container Security. Every package, container and container vessel gets searched.

Pay for this with custom levies and dues.

The bad guys won't be able to get into the USA and if they want to freak out in Sudan, that will be the problem of the Sudanese people and whatever tourists or business interests of the USA are there.

I'm not sure this is Ron Paul's solution, but I bet its pretty close. It sure ain't Ghouleani's solution thats for sure.

[ddmoit]

You know very well that the only thing that is going to "bankrupt" this country is the nearly 60% of the Federal budget that is going to what is essentially unConstitutional welfare. The total military expenditures are miniscule by comparison, and whether or not you agree with the amount of spending you can't argue that funding the military is not in the Constitution.Right now, the national debt is equivalent to $30,000 for every man, woman, and child in the US (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_go_ot/nation_in_debt_3 ) . The cost of the war in Iraq - just through 2008 - is equivalent to $5,300 per US citizen. I'd hardly call that insignificant. What do you think an Iran war will cost? And, how much larger will our armed forces have to become to fight it?

Incidentally, which president has recently presided over massive increases in those unconstitutional welfare programs?

The leaders of the Roman empire didn't think they would go bankrupt either - until is was too late to stop it.

EDIT: Although the $10 trillion figure mentioned in the link above is staggering, it is actually a gross understatement of our true debt.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51212

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1143129660.php

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/alerts/105

[HS345]

"Happy" ending. :clap1:

British teacher pardoned. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_af/sudan_british_teacher)

[sandbagger]

Dan - why do you keep focusing on military spending? We get it you don't like our aggressive approach to fighting Islamofascism, but even the references you provided prove my point. It is NOT military spending that is breaking the bank. It is quite simply the unconstitutional expansion into social welfare. We would do well to heed Reagan's admonishiment to his Cabinet at their first meeting: "all these social programs won't matter if we don't take care of our national defense." :nod:

And no, I'm not at all pleased with W's spending - but what do you think a Kerry or Gore would have done? :shrug:

[kate42]

:wave:

To Omar al-Bashir. :clap1: :clap1: The Muslim world needs more leaders like the Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir who pardoned the English school teacher. :)

[flatfloor]

Yeah but they are still going to give the Teddy bear a public lashing. :whip:

[sandbagger]

Where's PETA when you need them? Teddies everywhere should be up in arms over this insult. :devil:

[ddmoit]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_mi_ea/sudan_british_teacher_94

The case also sparked criticism from many Muslims in the West who said she should have never been arrested. On Monday, Inayat Bunglawala, a spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, welcomed the pardon.This quote is buried at the bottom of the story.

Like most folks, I am bothered by what I perceive as a lack of outcry from what I hope are the majority of Muslims. I don't know if it's just not happening, or if the press chooses not to cover it. I leaned a long time ago that lack of press coverage does not mean it's not happening.

[ddmoit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJC1unnuwds

[Jeremy]

Surely you dont believe that the "press" is slanted in its position on muslims? :lol2:

[dcousins]

I saw that this morning too. It makes my point exactly. Different culture or no, those people are freakin' insane.

When I saw the angry mob in Sudan getting all bent out of shape over a Teddy Bear, I thought of the angry mobs in the Jim Crow South yelling at young African Americans kids during the beginning of integration. We are not really that different. I am sorry to say that. All humans are capable of insanity.

The Muslim world needs more leaders like the Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir who pardoned the English school teacher.

Good Grief, Kate42, for real? :eek:

Yeah, if only he could manage to save the multitude of displaced, raped, massacred Sudanese people in Darfur while worrying about 1 British woman. Yeah, I sure wish there were more like him.

Al-Bashir has described as ruthless and his pro-government militia forces or Janiaweed have been accused of committing horrible atrocities against the civilian population of Southern Sudan, with more than 4 million having fled as refugees from their homes. International groups have described the pogrom against the Southern Sudanese as genocide, and torture, rape and murder are commonplace. Conditions in the South are deplorable, as the war raged on for 12 years withour pause, with basic services extremely limited and agricultural and industrial production extremely weak; starvation has been at times widespread, and only with massive foreign assistance were the factions in the South able to maintain their efforts against the North due to assistance from Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda (of whom it is said they are conspiring to topple the Sudanese government) and the United States.

Al-Bashir is also accused for allowing slave trade to thrive in the country, with widespread reports of loyalist forces kidnapping southern women and children for use as slaves and concubines; treatment of these "civilian prisoners" is said to be deplorable and cruel. Although Al-Bashir has publicly spoken against the practice of enslaving civilian captives, to date very little action has materialized.

Al-Bashir is known to have harboured Osama Bin Laden, and relations with the United States have been poor; the US and other countries currently have embargoes and trade sanctions in place against Sudan and the state find itself somewhat isolated in the world community. Sudan is listed by the US as a nation that actively supports terrorist organizations, which is a claim that al-Bashir categorically denies, and it should be noted that he did assist in pressuring Saddam Hussein in Iraq to allow weapons inspectors into the country after the 11 September 2001 attacks.

http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/al_Bashir/May2005al_bashirEN.htm

[sandbagger]

All humans are capable of insanity.Just as all humans are capable of greatness. But "capability" doesn't go wacky over a cartoon. "Capability" doesn't strap on explosives to kill innocent women and children. It is people who've succumbed to the brainwashing of a cult of intolerance and violence who do these things and much more. :devil:

[ddmoit]

But I'll make it simple for you, just tell me how Ron Paul is going to stop a war that Islam has waged against "non-believers" for 1600 years and I'll vote for him.When are the Muslims going to get around to attacking Switzerland? They're every bit the infidels that we are and they're pretty well-off financially to boot. Is Switzerland engaged in folly for not taking the fight to the Muslims before the Muslims come to them?

As for this alleged 1600 year war, why is it only recently that the Muslims have come after us? We would have been easy targets in the formative years of our country. Or, how about during the Civil War? That would have been a great opportunity to strike at two groups of in-fighting infidels.

[sandbagger]

Dan - I provided you specific references to quotes and observations on Islam from the same Framers you like to quote when making the case for Ron Paul, and the best you can do is ask why Switzerland hasn't been attacked? I think that's called a 'diversion.' Were Jefferson and Adams just the precursors to modern-day neocons? How about Alexis de Tocqueville: "I studied the Quran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion more to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a from of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself."As for this alleged 1600 year war.... alleged? well, aside from my bad math (it's only 1400 years), are you saying John Quincy Adams was wrong when he referred to the 1200 years of ongoing war? That was 200 years ago, and it's only gotten worse.

fwiw, if you were as well-versed in the history of the Middle East as you are in Austrian economics I don't think you'd be asking about Switzerland. You'd know that Muslims were stopped at Vienna in the 10th Century, then pushed out of most of Europe by the Crusades. You'd also know that the radicals of Islam have not concealed the fact that they believe that once they topple the US Europe - what's left of it - will fall quickly without our support. An ambitious goal to be sure, but these people are nutty enough to think they can pull it off.

why didn't they attack during the Civil War? Part logistics and part recognition. A study of Islamic texts during that era reveals that the US was not taken seriously by the majority of Islam. There was also no real organization to take on the task - no bin Laden and no el Queda. But even so, how would they have done it? Ram some ships into our ports? Ships from the "Islamic Navy?" It didn't exist. Fact is Muslims didn't have the means or motivation to mess with a fledgling country across a vast ocean.

Check out Bernard Lewis's "What Went Wrong?" It was compiled from a series of essays and published before the attacks of 9/11. It will answer those questions far better than I can.

[flatfloor]

Bravo, Art. :clap1:

[ddmoit]

I provided you specific references to quotes and observations on Islam from the same Framers you like to quote when making the case for Ron Paul, and the best you can do is ask why Switzerland hasn't been attacked? I think that's called a 'diversion.' Were Jefferson and Adams just the precursors to modern-day neocons?Diversion? The whole notion that the Islamic world hates us for our freedom is a diversion from the real reasons we meddle in the Middle East.

While it may be true that some of our founding fathers (and their children) took a dim view of Islam, I don't see any of them suggesting it was a threat to our country or that we needed to engage in preemptive strikes against Islam.

fwiw, if you were as well-versed in the history of the Middle East as you are in Austrian economics I don't think you'd be asking about Switzerland. You'd know that Muslims were stopped at Vienna in the 10th Century, then pushed out of most of Europe by the Crusades. You'd also know that the radicals of Islam have not concealed the fact that they believe that once they topple the US Europe - what's left of it - will fall quickly without our support. An ambitious goal to be sure, but these people are nutty enough to think they can pull it off. Vienna suffered attacks from presumably Christian peoples twice in the 20th Century. Muslims certainly do not have a monopoly on invasions and atrocities in Europe.

Incidentally, Ludwig von Mises took a dim view of Islam as well. He considered it a dead religion in that it had ingrained rules against the free market. He knew that Islamic cultures would be surpassed by more market-friendly cultures. He didn't put much stock in Christianity either, but he didn't see it as a barrier to free markets.

Clearly we are not going to agree on this topic, and I concede that your view is the dominant one among our leaders right now. For that reason, I fear that our future generations will suffer for our folly. More of our soldiers will die for this pointless cause, and our further antagonizing will come home to roost in the form of terrorism which we will not be able to prevent - regardless of how much of a police state we establish in the "homeland".

You seem to agree - in principle if not degree- that we are overspending as a country. But you point out that the expenditures that you like (military) are not the main cause of it. I say that it won't make any difference when we're bankrupt. The spending on everything will have to cease. If my household is in the red, I can't blame the bankruptcy on the new car while I'm still buying cases of beer.

Outside of Ron Paul, there is not a single other presidential candidate that recognizes or understands the financial crisis we face. We can address it now on our terms, or we can suffer the fate of past empires.

[Scooter]

The difference between the candidates are

Borrow and Spend (Bankruptcy)
Tax and Spend (Pay as You Go)

[flatfloor]

I don't see any of them suggesting it was a threat to our country or that we needed to engage in preemptive strikes against Islam.

Really? Why did we go to war with the Barbary Pirates then?

[ddmoit]

Really? Why did we go to war with the Barbary Pirates then?Because they were pirates. We weren't giving non-Islamic pirates a pass, were we?

[flatfloor]

There were no non Islamic pirates operating from the Barbary Coast.

[kate42]

:wave:

"Shiver me timbers!" :rolleyes:

[sandbagger]

The whole notion that the Islamic world hates us for our freedom is a diversion from the real reasons we meddle in the Middle East."WE" meddle in the ME? Herein pretty much lies the crux of our differences, Dan. Those 1400 years of history show a pretty clear pattern of the just the reverse - the Middle East is meddling in the West. Just before his death Muhammad sent letters to the leaders of the five major Christian (ie, non-Muslim) regions and said, "Embrace Islam and be safe." They all refused his invitation and the battle lines were drawn.

yes, many wars have waged in Europe - some by non-Muslims. But only Muslims have demonstrated a consistent pattern of aggression. Unfortunately von Mises was only half right - Islam is anything but dead. But it did get surpassed by more liberal, free-market societies of the West as he predicted. Problem is that the nutballs that run Islam have never accepted this reality and have decided to fight back. Bernard Lewis traces the history of this decline and reversal of position in the book I suggested earlier. :nod:

[river-wear]

The other problem I see, regardless of who is meddling with whom, is that the world is getting to be a smaller place. I don't think it's feasible for large segments of society (for example, muslim and non-muslim) to ignore each other and peacefully co-exist.

There must be either common ground or some sort of accommodation for different cultures on this planet. And that's the skepticism I have for Ron Paul's approach (not that I know much about it). I like the idea of leaving other countries to fend for themselves (and stop U.S. "interference") but it just can't be that simple. Especially over the longer-term.

[ddmoit]

Hi Michele,

I don't think it's feasible for large segments of society (for example, muslim and non-muslim) to ignore each other and peacefully co-exist.I guess I don't understand that statement.

Additionally, Ron Paul is not proposing that we ignore anybody. He would just leave it to individuals of different cultures/countries to choose to interact or not interact. This isn't some crazy Utopian notion. There are real examples in history. Amsterdam is a great one.

For most of the 14th century, Amsterdam was an independent city-state where trade flourished among vastly different religions and cultures. It's a great example of how trade still occurs - even among folks who don't particularly like each other (one of the qualities necessary for being a merchant is having more tolerance for other cultures than most folks in your own culture.).

[kate42]

:wave:

Friendships between Muslim and non- Muslims`can exist. Twenty Five years ago one of my best friends at work was a Muslim. He and I had lunch together almost every day. He and I were so different (culturally),and yet we had much in common.
He came to this country to find a better way of life, not to overthrow us. He was a sweet, lovely man and at times I do miss his frienship. I wish there are more like him. :)

[ddmoit]

Where I used to live, the Catholic church was adjacent to the local Islamic center. The two groups got along just fine. In fact, the Islamic center allowed the church to use its parking lot on Sundays since it was not in use. They shared community information in each other's bulletins.

After 9/11, there was a police car at the Islamic center 24/7 for several weeks to prevent any violence (threats were made). One of the men from the Islamic center was actually hauled off and detained in Virginia for several days on false information reported against him.

[river-wear]

Hey Dan,

What I meant is that politics always seems to get in the way. On an individual basis, people of vastly different backgrounds can get along extremely well. On occasion you even run across groups that actively demonstrate this by organizing exchange programs so people on each side can see "they/we" aren't so bad after all.

But then you run into things like child labor in China; genocide; lack of rights in various regions, etc. and businesses here have to decide whether they will accept those differences or not. People here get involved and voice their opinions; the government chooses (or not) to get involved. The issues become so intertwined and then money complicates it much further.

It's dangerous for the US to depend so desperately on oil but not have any broader involvement in the region. (You could say they have us by the, uh, short hairs.) I'd love to be convinced otherwise. I also think it's potentially dangerous for us to have such a drastic trade imbalance with China. Left to their own devices, business will take a short term view to maximize their profits and to hell with everything else. I've seen it first-hand. They don't consider the big picture.

[ddmoit]

Michele, you've brought up more issues than I have it in me to tackle tonight. I'd love to address child labor, but it would take too long.

Let's talk about our so-called oil-dependence. It's a fallacy. Japan has absolutely no oil of their own, and yet they do not feel the need to have a presence in the Middle East. There are some economic realities that prevent the Middle East from withholding oil from us to spite us. Their oil is of no use to them unless they can sell it. They benefit by selling to us, and they harm themselves economically if they don't. Even if the Middle East decided not to sell oil to us directly, someone else would. That's the nature of trade. There is a world market for oil. The only way the Arabs could keep it from us would be to sell it to no one.

The oil-dependence nonsense is just a bunch of bull that politicians made up to serve their own purpose. And it has served them well.

If you want to worry about a dependency, worry about our dependency on a weaker and weaker fiat currency. Soon we will have trouble buying oil from even people we consider friends because no one will want to take our dollars. The blame for that rests squarely with our government (and with us to the extent that we ostensibly are responsible for our government).

[sandbagger]

There are real examples in history. Amsterdam is a great one. Amsterdam? :lol1:

Is that the same Amsterdam where Theo van Gogh was viciously murdered by Muslims who didn't like his movies? The same one where they rioted because of some silly cartoons? :shrug: Amsterdam is a mess. (http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/01/03/050103fa_fact1)

And while there is no doubt that individuals of different stripes can choose to get along, large group behaviors are much different. It is the large groups in Europe that are causing probems - refusing to assimilate and now trying to create their own pockets of Sharia law. Bottom line is that Islam in its stricter forms is incompatible with Western culture.
Japan has absolutely no oil of their own, and yet they do not feel the need to have a presence in the Middle East.No, but they attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 largely because we were squeezing their oil supply. In exchange for a very strict US-imposed Constitution the US now gets the privilege of fighting Japan's battles - including those that protect Japan's oil supply. :nod:

[ddmoit]

C'mon now, Art. I was clearly speaking of 14th century Amsterdam. Suggesting otherwise is beneath you.

[sandbagger]

:o It's been a long week, Dan - I actually meant to suggest that your reference HAD to be to an era other than present-day Amsterdam, but since you didn't specify..... :shrug:

It's also a lesson to be observed in the differences between then and now, and no one can argue that there is not a huge difference. "WHY?" is the $64,000 Question. One thing folks who study these things have noticed is that problems seemed to be linked to the relative size of the Muslim segment. It seems that the threshold is about 10%. Above that the "group think" of Islam seems to take over and you have problems. That is consistent with present-day demographics, at least.

And I think you'd have a hard time blaming the problems in modern-day Amsterdam with US foreign policy. The Dutch, in fact would seem to be more illogical targets than the Swiss you asked about earlier.

[Scooter]

And the end of the story--Woman pardoned.

http://news.aol.com/?feature=20071217065609990001